Would you like to help me build a system?

[luis]

I have a new pd for the 2004 season and I hope that for the next seasons as well. We have outlined the basics of a very simple system and I'd like to know what would you add to the system, what do you think it's very important and we are forgetting ? Do you have experience with such a system?

 

1c: 16+ any

1d: Precision style 11-15

1h/1s: 5+ 11-15

1N: 12-15 balanced no 5M

2c: Precision 11-15

2d: Weak 2 in a major

2h/2s: Muirderberg 5 in the major 4 in a minor (2s can be s+h)

2n: 8-11 5/4 in the minors

 

Over 1M we play forcing NT and 2/1 GF, a 2c 2/1 bid may be balanced without a 5 card suit to bid or game forcing with clubs.

 

Over 1c we bid 1d as 0-7 1h,1s,1n,2c,2d are TRANSFERS *1s balanced* and 8+

After 1c-1d 1h is a power relay 20+HCP others 16-19.

 

Any ideas will be considered

[DrTodd13]

I have come to prefer the 2D=wilkosz, 2H=weak, 2S=weak system methodology.

Alternatively, I sometimes substitute 2H=weak 2 in a major and 2S=intermediate

both minors. Intermediate minors fills a system hole in one system I play but your mileage may vary.

 

Todd

[hrothgar]

Using 2N to show a narrow continuous range with both minors is clearly sub-optimal. Much better to open 3C with these hands and maximize pressure on the opponents. Also, this is a mcu more efficient use of bidding space.

 

All-in-all, I'd much rather be playing MOSCITO, but thats another story.

[luis]

Using 2N to show a narrow continuous range with both minors is clearly sub-optimal. Much better to open 3C with these hands and maximize pressure on the opponents. Also, this is a mcu more efficient use of bidding space.

 

All-in-all, I'd much rather be playing MOSCITO, but thats another story.

Interesting point Richard, but then what do we use 2N for ? And what do we do with our 3c preempt ? I don't want to give up a 3c preempt.

I'm sure you may have some ideas.

[hrothgar]

Using 2N to show a narrow continuous range with both minors is clearly sub-optimal.  Much better to open 3C with these hands and maximize pressure on the opponents.  Also, this is a mcu more efficient use of bidding space.

 

All-in-all, I'd much rather be playing MOSCITO, but thats another story.

Interesting point Richard, but then what do we use 2N for ? And what do we do with our 3c preempt ? I don't want to give up a 3c preempt.

I'm sure you may have some ideas.

Hi Luis

 

To answer this I'd need to understand how you currently treat 3C/3D opening bids.

I am assuming that you are using 3C/3D as "standard" preempts.

 

I would rearrange the structure as follows:

 

2N = Either a "standard" 3C preempt OR

Bad 3 level preempt in Diamonds

 

3C = Preempt with both minors

 

3D = Constructive 3 level preempt with Diamonds

----------------

 

I see a couple major advantages to this inversion:

 

1. Weak with at least 5/4 in the minors is significantly more common than a "standard" 3C preempt. Using 3C as 2 suited with minors significantly improves the preemptive effect of your system without harming your constructive auctions.

 

2. You can now differentiate between good and bad 3 level preempts in Diamonds.

[luis]

Using 2N to show a narrow continuous range with both minors is clearly sub-optimal.  Much better to open 3C with these hands and maximize pressure on the opponents.  Also, this is a mcu more efficient use of bidding space.

 

All-in-all, I'd much rather be playing MOSCITO, but thats another story.

Interesting point Richard, but then what do we use 2N for ? And what do we do with our 3c preempt ? I don't want to give up a 3c preempt.

I'm sure you may have some ideas.

Hi Luis

 

To answer this I'd need to understand how you currently treat 3C/3D opening bids.

I am assuming that you are using 3C/3D as "standard" preempts.

 

I would rearrange the structure as follows:

 

2N = Either a "standard" 3C preempt OR

Bad 3 level preempt in Diamonds

 

3C = Preempt with both minors

 

3D = Constructive 3 level preempt with Diamonds

----------------

 

I see a couple major advantages to this inversion:

 

1. Weak with at least 5/4 in the minors is significantly more common than a "standard" 3C preempt. Using 3C as 2 suited with minors significantly improves the preemptive effect of your system without harming your constructive auctions.

 

2. You can now differentiate between good and bad 3 level preempts in Diamonds.

I like it, I'm going to discuss it with my pd.

 

Thanks Richard.

[flytoox]

I have a new pd for the 2004 season and I hope that for the next seasons as well. We have outlined the basics of a very simple system and I'd like to know what would you add to the system, what do you think it's very important and we are forgetting ? Do you have experience with such a system?

 

1c: 16+ any

1d: Precision style 11-15

1h/1s: 5+ 11-15

1N: 12-15 balanced no 5M

2c: Precision 11-15

2d: Weak 2 in a major

2h/2s: Muirderberg 5 in the major 4 in a minor (2s can be s+h)

2n: 8-11 5/4 in the minors

 

Over 1M we play forcing NT and 2/1 GF, a 2c 2/1 bid may be balanced without a 5 card suit to bid or game forcing with clubs.

 

Over 1c we bid 1d as 0-7 1h,1s,1n,2c,2d are TRANSFERS *1s balanced* and 8+

After 1c-1d 1h is a power relay 20+HCP others 16-19.

 

Any ideas will be considered

Hi, Luis, I think 1N with 12-15 is too large. with balanced 12hcp hand, i think it wont hurt to pass. 2d can be played as either weak two major or balanced 22-23 hand, or 4441 17hcp hand. so 2n can be played as minor two suiter, either 0-11 or 16+. you seem forget 4441 hand within 11-15hcp. i like to open 2h with this. 2s just played as natural s preempt, but better than 2d then 2s, or minor 3 level preempt. I like 2s to be s suit, coz i think 2s has very good preempt effect while 2h not.

 

gl with ur new ptnership

 

fly

[Free]

I usually play multi and muiderberg, but I'd advise you NOT to play 2S with possible 4 card H. It takes too much possibilities away for partner to rescue, if he can't count on just 2 suits.

 

I have a great continuation scheme to show exact shape after Muiderberg, but it doesn't include the 5S-4H or 5H-4S. If you want I can explain it, but it's a bit complicated at first. Once you know it, it's quite easy. You won't have problems with it I guess, because you're used to play relay systems...

[inquiry]

Since fly has attacked the 12-15 NT range, I will stick my head in here too, but for a different reason. I don't mind the width of the 12-15 range at all. But experience has showned that 1C-positive response-1NT game force, where positive response is 8+ buts too much pressure on you. You end up with a lot of balanced 16 opposite 8's in 3NT not making. I would use something like 14-16 or 15-17 1NT and use 1D followed by 1NT for the weaker hands. This isn't a huge deal, but at least one good player AGREES WITH ME (well, I guess I really agree with him), since Eric Rodwell voice this view and liked the 14-16 NT range. See… http://www.bridgematters.com/rodwell.htm

 

Thus, I think you may want to reconsider your NT range....

[flytoox]

Since fly has attacked the 12-15 NT range, I will stick my head in here too, but for a different reason. I don't mind the width of the 12-15 range at all. But experience has showned that 1C-positive response-1NT game force, where positive response is 8+ buts too much pressure on you. You end up with a lot of balanced 16 opposite 8's in 3NT not making. I would use something like 14-16 or 15-17 1NT and use 1D followed by 1NT for the weaker hands. This isn't a huge deal, but at least one good player AGREES WITH ME (well, I guess I really agree with him), since Eric Rodwell voice this view and liked the 14-16 NT range. See… http://www.bridgematters.com/rodwell.htm

 

Thus, I think you may want to reconsider your NT range....

Hehe, Ben, I read that article too and was thinking to play 14-16. But there is another problem, with 12-13hcp balanced hand, esp. short diamond, if you have to open this hand, then 1d is the only choice. one reason i like precision is that you can avoid opening short suit. I really hate to open 1d with 2 or 3 cards and min hand. so after thought for a while, i gave up and go back to 13-15nt. with 12hcp balanced hand, i simply pass. now i can raise pd's d opening happily, esp. in competition.

 

 

fly

[pbleighton]

"Hehe, Ben, I read that article too and was thinking to play 14-16. But there is another problem, with 12-13hcp balanced hand, esp. short diamond, if you have to open this hand, then 1d is the only choice. one reason i like precision is that you can avoid opening short suit. I really hate to open 1d with 2 or 3 cards and min hand. so after thought for a while, i gave up and go back to 13-15nt. with 12hcp balanced hand, i simply pass. now i can raise pd's d opening happily, esp. in competition."

 

Do you then open all 5C4M hands 2C, no matter how bad the club suit? If so, how much trouble does this cause you?

 

If you go with 2C guaranteeing 6 cards, then you can play any NT range you wnat, since 1D will be super-nebulous.

 

BTW, looking at ccs from the Bermuda Bowl, I noticed some Precision pairs were using 2D as weak, and opening 1D with a void.

 

What do folks think of this?

 

Peter

[flytoox]

Do you then open all 5C4M hands 2C, no matter how bad the club suit? If so, how much trouble does this cause you?

 

If you go with 2C guaranteeing 6 cards, then you can play any NT range you wnat, since 1D will be super-nebulous.

 

BTW, looking at ccs from the Bermuda Bowl, I noticed some Precision pairs were using 2D as weak, and opening 1D with a void.

 

What do folks think of this?

 

Peter

if it is 5422, i will try 1n, if it is 5431, yes, i will open 2c. I know many top players think 2c should show 6-card, but i think that is too infrequent. the reason they can do it is that they play 2d as any short d hand, 4441,4405, or 5431. I open 4414 or 4405 hand with 2h, and those 4315 or 3415 hand with 2c. I agree that if i hold 5card broke c and 4 card Major, i will have a problem. I hate it but i hate 1d to be any 0 to 3 cards.

[inquiry]

I follow power precision guidelines.. 2C requires 6 good clubs for me. I have opened 1D with a void.

 

Ben

[luis]

Thanks for the very good ideas.

 

I think I love the 12-15 range, first of all the 24HCP games after 1c-1x are exactly what I'd like to be playing, I like agressive games and making 1/3 is a good bussiness.

The other great thing about 12-15 is that it includes 15, the magic number, so when the 15-17 NTers are playing their tighter games after for example 1N-3N we will be playing a game too after an invitational sequence and acceptance.

No playing game when the panel is surely playing it is a major liability.

[Rado]

hi Luis and all friends,

 

Glad to see the system you are discussing is almost same with my lovely precision Club variant. Just may add that 1Di opening is 4+ cards non balanced, and when 4414 distribution open 1He with 4 cards. Another useful gadget is to add in 2Di multi the hand with 5He and 4Sp and 16-18 p ( the weakest range for 1Cl)

 

Best regards

Rado

[luis]

Updates:

 

:-) So far so good many good ideas

 

I changed the 2d/2h/2sp openings:

2d = weak 5 cards in a major and 4+ in another suit (may be both majors).

2h/2s = Weak 2's Ogust style.

 

I also added Rado's style to the 1d opening, always 4+ diamonds, with 4441 we open 1h. 1d is never balanced because we open 1NT with 12-15 HCP.

[hrothgar]

Updates:

 

:-) So far so good many good ideas

 

I changed the 2d/2h/2sp openings:

2d = weak 5 cards in a major and 4+ in another suit (may be both majors).

2h/2s = Weak 2's Ogust style.

 

 

Luis

 

Any chance that I could get you to consider the Frelling 2D opening.

I think that it is theorectically stronger that the 2D opening that you are considering.

 

Frelling 2D = 4+ Diamonds, 4+ cards in either major

Could be 4432 but not 4441/5440

 

Advantages include:

 

2D is natural. CHO can and will frequently pass 2D. This puts much more pressure on LHO who needs to immedaitely clarify many more hand types.

 

2D is very frequent (including 4432 hands in the opening does wonderful things for the opening frequency)

 

2D is constructive: I have a nice response schedule that allows you to comfortably explore for the best part score/game.

[mikestar]

I play like Rado does, except for the interesting multi idea. I think that its worth making 2C harder to handle to let 1D be natural instead of nebulous.

 

I've played 13-16 NT for years without difficulty (using 17 minimum for 1C). 12-15 should be just fine. Most of the problems with opening 1C with 16 balanced come about because of the GF positives on 8 counts. Wei originally made provision for stopping short of game when 16 opposite 8. No one uses this now, it's much easier to make positives GF, but in that case, a positive should require 9 points.

[luis]

Updates:

 

:-) So far so good many good ideas

 

I changed the 2d/2h/2sp openings:

2d = weak 5 cards in a major and 4+ in another suit (may be both majors).

2h/2s = Weak 2's Ogust style.

 

 

Luis

 

Any chance that I could get you to consider the Frelling 2D opening.

I think that it is theorectically stronger that the 2D opening that you are considering.

 

Frelling 2D = 4+ Diamonds, 4+ cards in either major

Could be 4432 but not 4441/5440

 

Advantages include:

 

2D is natural. CHO can and will frequently pass 2D. This puts much more pressure on LHO who needs to immedaitely clarify many more hand types.

 

2D is very frequent (including 4432 hands in the opening does wonderful things for the opening frequency)

 

2D is constructive: I have a nice response schedule that allows you to comfortably explore for the best part score/game.

Do you have a short summary of the development after 2d since it can be 5-4,6/4,5-5 etc?

I'd like to open something with 5/4 weak hands with both majors and thus I like the current 2d structure.

I might consider Frelling I'm not sure :-) but I'm getting help here :-))

[hrothgar]

I play like Rado does, except for the interesting multi idea. I think that its worth making 2C harder to handle to let 1D be natural instead of nebulous.

 

I've played 13-16 NT for years without difficulty (using 17 minimum for 1C). 12-15 should be just fine. Most of the problems with opening 1C with 16 balanced come about because of the GF positives on 8 counts. Wei originally made provision for stopping short of game when 16 opposite 8. No one uses this now, it's much easier to make positives GF, but in that case, a positive should require 9 points.

Note:

 

As usual, I think that MOSCITO provides some very interesting ideas on this front.

In particular, "modern" versions of the system are designed to immediately clarify semi-positives after the strong club opening.

 

MOSCITO uses 1C - 1S to show a double negative

1C - 1D and 1C - 2N+ show game forcing hands

 

All other bids show semi-positives

In turn, this allows us to support a considerably weaker "strong" club opening without completely overloading the 1D response.

 

Using 1H+ as an absolute game force is fine for "conservative" strong club structures, but I fear its utility is limited with modern aggressive systems.

[mikestar]

... Most of the problems with opening 1C with 16 balanced come about because of the GF positives on 8 counts. Wei originally made provision for stopping short of game when 16 opposite 8. No one uses this now, it's much easier to make positives GF, but in that case, a positive should require 9 points.

Note:

 

As usual, I think that MOSCITO provides some very interesting ideas on this front.

In particular, "modern" versions of the system are designed to immediately clarify semi-positives after the strong club opening.

 

MOSCITO uses 1C - 1S to show a double negative

1C - 1D and 1C - 2N+ show game forcing hands

 

All other bids show semi-positives

In turn, this allows us to support a considerably weaker "strong" club opening without completely overloading the 1D response.

 

Using 1H+ as an absolute game force is fine for "conservative" strong club structures, but I fear its utility is limited with modern aggressive systems.

 

 

Good point. I have nothing against semi-positives. What I am opposed to is GF positives that aren't strong enough. Perhaps a scale of responses that distinguish 0-4, 5-8, 9-12, and 13+ could be worked out.

[hrothgar]

Comment 1: I agree that it is good to have an opening to show both majors, however, my prefered preemptive structure opens 2H to show

4+ Hearts and (4+ Spades or 5+ Clubs)

 

Here is a summary description of the response structure over 2D.

Its a bit complicated since I wanted to be able to invite game in either major without bypassing 3D. For example, if responder wants to invite game in Hearts but play 3D opposite spades he can bid an immediate 3C

 

After 2D = 4+ Diamonds and 4+ cards in either major

 

3H = Pass or COrrect

 

3D = Preemptive DIamond Raise

 

3C = Asking bid: Opener will clarify his Heart holding and then strength

 

4H = 6 Hearts, maximum hand

4m = 6 Hearts, maximum hand, 1st/2nd round control in the bid minor

3N = 5 Hearts, maximum hand

3S = 4 Hearts and a maximum hand

3H = Hearts and a minimum

3D = Spades and Diamonds

 

2N = Relay for shape/range

 

3N = 6 Hearts and a maximum

3S = 5 Hearts and a maximum

3H = 4 hearts and a maximum

3D = Minimum hand

3C = Spades and a maximum

 

2S = Puppet to 2N and then

 

3S = Invite with long Spades

3H = Invite with lng Hearts

3D = Asking bid (Opener pases with Hearts and zooms with Spades)

3C = To play

 

2H = Pass or correct

[Guest Jlall]

You end up with a lot of balanced 16 opposite 8's in 3NT not making.

 

24 HCP= 3N :) just because they arent makable doesnt mean they wont make, and if they require good play to make you want to be rewarded with +600 for making, not another 30 points.

 

Luis, if playing 12-15, what is 1D p 1M p 1N? 9-11? lol :) usually need 2 ranges under your strong club, one for delayed 1N, one for 1N opener..... also, playing a 2N opener as natural can still be advantagous. if that range is in the 1C opener sometimes its too much ground to cover, and you can play 1C p 1x p 2N as 22-24 like a 2C opener this way. minors weak doesnt come up that often, and when it does its not always a blessing (especially if done on 5/4!!)

[mikestar]

...  if playing 12-15, what is 1D p 1M p 1N? 9-11? lol :) usually need 2 ranges under your strong club, one for delayed 1N, one for 1N opener...

The beauty of the 12-15 range is that you don't need 2 ranges under 1C, with 11 or less balance you pass. This leaves 1D-1M-1N free for other purposes. A natural meaning would be a hand playable in NT after the response, but flawed for a 1NT opening. For example 5-4 in the minors and a stiff honor in partner's suit.

 

Various artificial possibilites exist. I've used:

 

1D-1H-1NT = 3 card heart raise (may be weak or strong like a support double)

1D-1S-1NT = 3 card spade raise OR 4 hearts and not enough strength to reverse.

[mishovnbg]

........................................Hi Luis!....................................

Congratulations for finding new partner! Bulgarian's joke about it is harder than wife :P . Several advices to your new partnership friend:

1. The most important: keep things simple at beginning and most natural as possible!!! The few of people are capabale to wait years to win. Regular loses because of complex system may ruine your partnership.

2. The best system is the system which your parter already know. Make the large interview (some internet sites can help about) what he exactly play in most common situations - bids after 3th/4th suit, game/slam tries, intervention after opening, after response with dbl/suit/2suiter, after conventional bids like transfers/4th suit, stayman and dbl from opps.... Make results of this interview the base of your system. Can modify it of course, if there are things, with which you can't live - explain to your partner why and remember it to him before each session at least during year :( . This is only sure way I know for fast win Luis! Of course you may prefer to enjoy nice system, instead of nice partership :P .

3. Do not spend much time about bidding after 1NT opening. You may be notice already that near half of any system are conventions after 1NT opening. Natural 1NT eat too much space and you will never find good solution. Live with this and don't lose neurves and memory for 0.01% advantages B) .

4. If you decide to play precision, don't try to improve 1♣ opening. 1♣ is bad opening and will remain same forever. Instead of improving 1♣, improve all other bids. Don't use complicate responses and continuations after 1♣ opening, because in real life you will use them very rare due to opps intervention. Basically you need only 2 very important agreement after 1♣ opening:

• How opener show different type of strong hand after negative
  
• how responder show 12+HCP(slam interest)
  

5. The competitive bidding is too complex for clear agreements. Only way to improve your partenship bidding in competition is to have general agreements and earn experience from mistakes. My advice is to read Robson&Segal "Partnersip bidding", both you and your partner and use exactly what they suggest. You will probably modify it, but do this later, after some experience with partner.

 

I will be happy friend, if some of my thoughts can help you. Misho