1=4=6=2 and partner bids spades

[cherdano]

IMPs all vulnerable, you have ♠T ♥AQJ3 ♦AJ8543 ♣A3 in 4th seat.

 

Three passes to you, you open 1♦, LHO overcalls 2♣, partner bids 2♠, RHO passes, what do you do?

[helene_t]

You play a 14-16 1NT, right? Then 2NT must be forcing so you can bid either that or 3♦ to show this hand, depending on your agreements.

 

Otherwise, I think I'll bid 4♥ based on the theory that partner can still look for 3NT with 3♠ and a 4-3 fit in hearts might be the best game. Also, by bidding reverse I emphasize diamonds.

 

Maybe 3♣ should show this hand, then you'd need to bid 4♣ to show a generic slam invite for spades. But I'm afraid 3♣ shows spades.

[Guest Jlall]

I like 3C, we can get 3D out of pard maybe then we can bid 3H, or we can get 3H out of pard if he has 4 hearts. Bidding a direct 3H is ok too but I think this is better maybe.

[foo]

IMPs all vulnerable, you have ♠T ♥AQJ3 ♦AJ8543 ♣A3 in 4th seat.

 

Three passes to you, you open 1♦, LHO overcalls 2♣, partner bids 2♠, RHO passes, what do you do?

Nice 5 loser, 6 control, 16 count.

 

GOP has bid like they have a maximum pass (~10-11 HCP) with 5+S.

 

My chunky H's and so-so D's suggest emphasizing H's more and D's less than usual when showing 46 in the Reds.

 

I have enough to Reverse and bid my shape naturally, so I do.

 

3H from me.

[whereagles]

3♥, a natural bid.

 

Yes, I know it's risky to bid naturally these days :P

[pclayton]

3♥ looks normal. Expresses my strength and red suit length. 3♣ shows the ability to control the auction, which I cannot do.

[han]

I would have bid 3♥.

[Guest Jlall]

3♥ looks normal. Expresses my strength and red suit length. 3♣ shows the ability to control the auction, which I cannot do.

Why not? Over which bid from partner do you have a bidding problem?

[Halo]

I'm for three hearts, shape and non minimum.

[pclayton]

3♥ looks normal. Expresses my strength and red suit length. 3♣ shows the ability to control the auction, which I cannot do.

Why not? Over which bid from partner do you have a bidding problem?

Well; if pard bids 3♠; 3N is 'foisted' on you, when pard doesn't have a clue about your hearts or diamond length.

 

If pard bids a surprise 3♥; you can cue 4♣ - is pard going to read you for spade support of heart support?

 

Pard bids 3N. How comfortable are you passing?

 

I haven't heard any real arguments against 3♥. Why cue when you can make a natural, descriptive, forcing call?

[Guest Jlall]

Well; if pard bids 3♠; 3N is 'foisted' on you, when pard doesn't have a clue about your hearts or diamond length.

so? he doesnt have 4 hearts or diamond support.

 

If pard bids a surprise 3♥; you can cue 4♣ - is pard going to read you for spade support of heart support?

 

Heart support if he knows how to play bridge. If I had spade support I'd bid 3S.

 

Pard bids 3N. How comfortable are you passing?

 

Very comfortable, partner has a club stopper and doesnt have 4 hearts and is a passed hand. Where else would I ever want to play?

 

I haven't heard any real arguments against 3♥. Why cue when you can make a natural, descriptive, forcing call

 

Because over 3H partner cannot bid 3D. If you have a diamond slam this will be the best and most efficient start. If partner has 4 hearts, 3C then 4C will be the best and most efficient start as partner, without a club control, will always bid 4H over 3H if he has 4 hearts and you have no idea what to do.

[mike777]

I like 3C, we can get 3D out of pard maybe then we can bid 3H, or we can get 3H out of pard if he has 4 hearts. Bidding a direct 3H is ok too but I think this is better maybe.

ditto, surprised this was an issue, oh well.

3c first choice

3h is fine second choice.

[jdonn]

I have to admit I agreed with Phil at first and bid 3♥, but Justin convinced me for 3♣.

[Codo]

I thought that 3 ♣ was clear cut with 3 ♥ a distand second, but....

 

The arguing was made by Justin of course, nothing to add.

[pclayton]

Well; if pard bids 3♠; 3N is 'foisted' on you, when pard doesn't have a clue about your hearts or diamond length.

so? he doesnt have 4 hearts or diamond support.

So, we automatically default to 3N when we have a single stopper, and no 8 card major fit? Sounds like a lot of -300's to me.

 

 

If pard bids a surprise 3♥; you can cue 4♣ - is pard going to read you for spade support of heart support?

 

Heart support if he knows how to play bridge. If I had spade support I'd bid 3S.

Really? How would you bid: AKx, xx, AKQxxx, Ax? Is poor pard really obligated to cue the ♥A over 3♠ with a rag like: Qxxxx, Axx, xx, xxx? To me, this is one of the kinds of hands that 3♣ can show, not the hand from the OP.

 

 

 

Pard bids 3N. How comfortable are you passing?

 

Very comfortable, partner has a club stopper and doesnt have 4 hearts and is a passed hand. Where else would I ever want to play?

Are you sure that pard isn't choosing NT over diamonds, just because he has a club stop? Do you really want to play 3N across from: Qxxx, xx, Kxxx, Kxx? 5♦ looks as good as 3N, and 6♦ is reasonable on the auction. Add the ♥K and 6♦ is great. I'm not sure that an initial 3♣ gets across the character of the hand, or the fact pard should be discounting spade honors and upgrading red suit cards.

 

 

 

I haven't heard any real arguments against 3♥. Why cue when you can make a natural, descriptive, forcing call.

Because over 3H partner cannot bid 3D. If you have a diamond slam this will be the best and most efficient start.

I don't disagree that its the most 'efficient', but frequently 3♦ will be the default call with hands that don't have a club stop, don't have 6 spades (possible even though he didn't open a weak 2), and don't have 4 hearts. How strong is pard? Is he a 5 count? An 11 count? I can't see how you'd know. Presumably you follow with 3♥. Will pard always 'punt' with 3♠? I doubt it.

 

 

 

If partner has 4 hearts, 3C then 4C will be the best and most efficient start as partner, without a club control, will always bid 4H over 3H if he has 4 hearts and you have no idea what to do.

As I stated above, I'm not convinced that 4♣ by me confirms hearts. We've stated before here, that 4♣ by pard does not promise a club control (any more than 3♣ by me promises a control); it is merely the way to make a 'strong' raise to 4♥, and I would expect it with a hand like: Axxxx, Kxxx, Kx, xx.

[Guest Jlall]

So, we automatically default to 3N when we have a single stopper, and no 8 card major fit? Sounds like a lot of -300's to me.

I removed the blue since its annoying :P Phil I don't get your point, if you bid 3C-3S-3N, it's the same as 3H-3S-3N. This is the same thing unless you plan on not bidding 3N at any point ever.

 

 

Really? How would you bid: AKx, xx, AKQxxx, Ax? Is poor pard really obligated to cue the ♥A over 3♠ with a rag like: Qxxxx, Axx, xx, xxx? To me, this is one of the kinds of hands that 3♣ can show, not the hand from the OP.

 

 

I would set trumps with 3S over 3H. You are not going to win this argument. If over 3H you bid 4C you cannot be coming in spades, you had the opportunity to bid 3S. I don't understand your example hand. 2S is not possible with responders hand, and 3H would not be possible with responders hand. I think you are confusing yourself. If partner bids 4S over 3S I will obviously cuebid 5C and still get to slam if partner has a heart control. If I bid 4C over 3H and partner bids 4H thats not a cuebid for spades, he already bid hearts naturally! He's trying to sign off.

 

I don't disagree that its the most 'efficient', but frequently 3♦ will be the default call with hands that don't have a club stop, don't have 6 spades (possible even though he didn't open a weak 2), and don't have 4 hearts. How strong is pard? Is he a 5 count? An 11 count? I can't see how you'd know. Presumably you follow with 3♥. Will pard always 'punt' with 3♠? I doubt it.

 

How strong is pard? 9+-11, he made a free 2/1. WTF are you talking about with 5 points. If partner as a passed hand makes a 2/1 and then bids spades and diamonds his hand is pretty well defined. You need to re-read the auction I think, earlier you gave him a balanced 6 count for his 2S bid, now you're talking about 5 point hands.

 

As I stated above, I'm not convinced that 4♣ by me confirms hearts.

 

Phil, please trust me on this one. I am 100000000 % sure. You can ask anyone who you respect if you do not believe me. If you have the opportunity to bid a forcing 3S, you must do so. How can you have a cooperative slam discussion when partner doesn't even know what suit you're coming in? Why would you not want to clarify that. This is bridge 101, set trumps when possible in slam auctions before you cuebid. Sometimes it's not possible and you must make due, but here you can. There is no reason to create ambiguity. If you want an analagous auction try:

 

1N-2H

2S 3H

 

Here if opener bids 4 of a minor it is coming in hearts. If he's coming in spades he will bid 3S.

[pclayton]

So, we automatically default to 3N when we have a single stopper, and no 8 card major fit? Sounds like a lot of -300's to me.

I removed the blue since its annoying :P Phil I don't get your point, if you bid 3C-3S-3N, it's the same as 3H-3S-3N. This is the same thing unless you plan on not bidding 3N at any point ever.

 

 

Really? How would you bid: AKx, xx, AKQxxx, Ax? Is poor pard really obligated to cue the ♥A over 3♠ with a rag like: Qxxxx, Axx, xx, xxx? To me, this is one of the kinds of hands that 3♣ can show, not the hand from the OP.

 

 

I would set trumps with 3S over 3H. You are not going to win this argument. If over 3H you bid 4C you cannot be coming in spades, you had the opportunity to bid 3S. I don't understand your example hand. 2S is not possible with responders hand, and 3H would not be possible with responders hand. I think you are confusing yourself. If partner bids 4S over 3S I will obviously cuebid 5C and still get to slam if partner has a heart control. If I bid 4C over 3H and partner bids 4H thats not a cuebid for spades, he already bid hearts naturally! He's trying to sign off.

 

I don't disagree that its the most 'efficient', but frequently 3♦ will be the default call with hands that don't have a club stop, don't have 6 spades (possible even though he didn't open a weak 2), and don't have 4 hearts. How strong is pard? Is he a 5 count? An 11 count? I can't see how you'd know. Presumably you follow with 3♥. Will pard always 'punt' with 3♠? I doubt it.

 

How strong is pard? 9+-11, he made a free 2/1. WTF are you talking about with 5 points. If partner as a passed hand makes a 2/1 and then bids spades and diamonds his hand is pretty well defined. You need to re-read the auction I think, earlier you gave him a balanced 6 count for his 2S bid, now you're talking about 5 point hands.

 

As I stated above, I'm not convinced that 4♣ by me confirms hearts.

 

Phil, please trust me on this one. I am 100000000 % sure. You can ask anyone who you respect if you do not believe me. If you have the opportunity to bid a forcing 3S, you must do so. How can you have a cooperative slam discussion when partner doesn't even know what suit you're coming in? Why would you not want to clarify that. This is bridge 101, set trumps when possible in slam auctions before you cuebid. Sometimes it's not possible and you must make due, but here you can. There is no reason to create ambiguity. If you want an analagous auction try:

 

1N-2H

2S 3H

 

Here if opener bids 4 of a minor it is coming in hearts. If he's coming in spades he will bid 3S.

Yeah I know the blue is annoying. I was having trouble with the quote function :)

 

Whats more annoying is I chose some 5-6 point hands (that are impossible with a 2S call) as responder to make the point about 3♥ being more effective. I'm heading out, I'll try to come up with better arguments later, but at first glance, I don't think:

 

1N - 2♦

2♥ - 3♦

3♠

 

as showing support for diamonds and cueing spades carries the same assumption about setting trump as:

 

1♦ - (2♣) - 2♠

3♣ (pass) - 3♥

4♣

 

at all.

[bid_em_up]

3♥ looks normal. Expresses my strength and red suit length. 3♣ shows the ability to control the auction, which I cannot do.

Why not? Over which bid from partner do you have a bidding problem?

4♠, when he thinks 3♣ implies spade support. :P

[Fluffy]

3♣ has a flaw, and that is that partner might have both 4♥ and ♣ stopper and will not know wich one to bid.