inquiry Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 I have been playing around with 2C as drury after a 1H or 1S opening bid OR true 2/1 game force (or as we shall see, balanced 11+, with or with mild fit). So far, I am very happy with this modification. This allows a tremendous off-loading of 1NT forcing, allows free 1M-2M raises on junk. Let's see how this works... The non-2C bids....1M-1NT = 1NT is forcing, and denies either 3 card support or balanced 11+1M-2M = 0 to bad 8 hcp and three card support (with 4 bid 3M)1M-3N = 13-15 and balanced hand, 3 card support (or you can reverse 2C/3N below)1M-3M = 0 to bad 8 hcp, four card support 1M-2C, show, [index][*]True 2/1 GF with 5+ clubs[*]Balanced hand 11+ without 3 card support[*]Constructive raise 3-card raise (9+) and less than game force [*]Good 8 or 9 hcp and four card raise [/index] This structure unloads 1NT -- it can no longer be balanced and good (else 2C), or anyhand intermediate or weak with 3 card support (else 2M or 2C first). Over 1M-2C-? opener rebids more or less like to drury. Here, opener rebids 2M with all pathetic opening bids (especially if 5332 distribution). This rebid doesn't promise extra trump lenght but is a warning to stop with all fitting hand and less than game force value. If responder bids again (other than 2NT) over 2M, it is game force and shows true 2/1 GF hand. This means that responder with balanced 12 and three card support the bidding can easily go 1M-2C-2M-PASS. The 2D bid shows better than a minimum opening hand (or at least good distribution), but says nothing at all about diamonds. Over 2D, responder rebids 2M only with the trump raise and weak hand (good 8 to 12). This bid is forcing one round, as opener must have extra for his 2D bid. RESPONDER does not jump to 3M over 2D with 11-12 (2M is forcing), as the jump shows a true 2/1 GF and starts slam investigation (using Serious 3NT, so opener can separtate a "good hand" from a "bad hand" for his 2D bid which already showed extras). Over 1M-2C-2D-2M, ---> 2Nt by opener is asking responder to show where he has some stuff, and new suit is looking for help there. Over 1M-2C-2D-2M, ---> 3M is simply bid game with 11-12, pass with 8/9, use judgement with 10. Over 2D, 2NT and 3NT show balanced hands. 2NT shows 11-12 balanced (or excellent 10), and 3NT shows 13-15, 4NT shows 16-18. All these NT bids deny three card support. Over 1M-2C-2M----> 3NT can be stronger than 13-15 since partner is announcing a yucky hand, you will not want to jump to 4NT with 16 or 17 balanced, as his likely 11/12 and no fit you have no where to go. After 2C, any new suit or club rebid by responder show true 2/1 GF. And 3M by responder over 2D or 2M shows true 2/1 GF, and a hand in which a picture bid jump to 4M is not right due to an additional outside control. The one semi-problematic auction is 1S-2C-2H. Here 2H shows 4H's but does not promise anything extra. Now you have to separate your weak hands from your strong hands when you have heart support. To do this, I use, an immediate 2S as weaker hand with spade support, 3S as intermediate hand with spade support (not forcing), and 3H as balanced hand with four card fit (the 10/11-12 point hand). IF I have a TRUE 2/1 GF hand, I rebid a forcing 3C (promising true 2/1 GF values) and opener rebids 3D to see what else I have. Now 3H or 3S show support and set trumps. Of course over 2H I could have jumped to 4H or 4S as a picture bid. Playing this way, notice what happens to your 1NT forcing bids. The good balanced hands are gone. The intermediate hands with 3 card fits are gone. and all the stong hands (with or without fit) are gone. They are tied up in either direct major raise, or through 2C or jumps in NT. This has implications for your forcing 1NT continuations through use of BART, and Impossible 2S rebids. Even 2NT rebids on some auctions. So if you play with a partner that likes to open 1M light (say the occasional 10 hcp hand and almost all 11 hcp hands) and you ARE NOT playing precision where your bidding is protected by the limited upper range on this bid, you might want to think about this hybrid 2C response to a first or second seat 1M opening bid. Ben (Some very good players who open light in all seats, use drury after 1st or 2nd seat opening bids. I think this system is a reasonable compromise. To deal with interference, which is risky here for the opponents anyway, I use Garrozzo 2/3 dbls. by opener) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 It sounds nice, but now you are getting in a relaying system after you open a major. If that's what you want to do, I think you maybe want to play a Relay system, like Precision or Keylime or something to that extend. And the other downside I see is that the 1M-2M, 0-8 HCP range is way to big of a range for my taste, unless y have again some relaying involved to find out what the responders point count is. Mike :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 It sounds nice, but now you are getting in a relaying system after you open a major. If that's what you want to do, I think you maybe want to play a Relay system, like Precision or Keylime or something to that extend. And the other downside I see is that the 1M-2M, 0-8 HCP range is way to big of a range for my taste, unless y have again some relaying involved to find out what the responders point count is. Mike :D After 1M-2C, i think you can still play natural bid rather than relay. However, I do agree with you that 0-8 is far too wide. But if this is played with precision limited opening, it will be very useful. In reality, when you raise pd with 3 card, you will usually have something, even one k, or q and a doubleton. In this situation, 1M-2M is a bar bid. opener can continue only if he has far more than min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 Ben, isnot this simply the 1M-2C structure we tried days ago? I think playing 4-seat Drury is a nice treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 If you are don't have the nerve for 1H-2H on 0 points, you can bid it with as few as you feel safe responding. There are some zero point hands I don't raise with, but I like to raise with support, and this lets me do so in a mild comfort zone. Do you have to relay with 2D? Of course not. You can not only bid 2M you can bid something else. The something elses are pretty much all game force (except for 1S-2C-2H). So it is not a complete relay system. The 2D response is very much like an inverted resply to Drury, where 2D shows a good and hand 2M shows a yucky hand. Of course, 2D is game invite, 2M is weak, but responder may have game force, and most others game force. And to fly, yes this is the thing you and I practiced. I just tried a way to describe it, so drury or GF (or big balance) seemed to fit. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerardo Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Why is 1NT still forcing after unloaded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Why is 1NT still forcing after unloaded? only semi-forcing as far as i know. so opener's rebid shld implie feature or extra strength, with min 5332, simply pass 1n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Yes 1NT is only semi-forcing. The reason being ALL GAME FORCE and FITTING hands are removed from the bid. A lot of people will bid 1NT with 3 card support and 11-12 points, that is not happening here. Some people use 1M-2M as constructive and use 1NT to include weak hands with support, that will not here, and of course, some people bid forcing 1NT with both 11-12 and 13-15 (or more) and balanced hand (2NT being jacoby, 3NT sorter of similar), and again that will not happen here. Now, responder might have the really yucky hand with seven club and not be happy if you pass, or might have a fairly good hand with a five card minor but not enough for 2/1 GF. But you will never catch him with a fit or with a strong hand, so 1NT can clearly be played as semiforcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 [hv=d=e&v=e&n=s3haq753d97642c73&w=sq86hkjt84djt8cqj&e=sajt54h96d53cak54&s=sk972h2dakqct9862]399|300|[/hv] West North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♣* Pass 2♠ All Pass To be fair, this wasn't the auction that ended in 2♠.. that one was by The_hog and his partner where WEST bid a very constructive 2♠ which was passed out. But this is how the first/second seat drury convention would have worked. Note how the other 15 tables got much too high after EAST opened "light". 4SEx-3 800 114SEx-2 500 5.64SEx-2 500 5.64SEx-2 500 5.64SE-3 300 1.073NW-3 300 1.074SE-2 200 -1.533NE-2 200 -1.534SE-2 200 -1.534SE-2 200 -1.533SE-2 200 -1.534SE-2 200 -1.533SE-1 100 -4.133SE-1 100 -4.133SE-1 100 -4.132SE= -110 -8.33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGF_Flame Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 2/1 always looked like a non ideal way of bidding to me since u put most of ur bids to show GF hand and leave so little to GI bid, this is why i think its a good idea to add something to the 2/1 GF bids, just like u did to the 2c bid here. same we do in AMBRA sys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 [hv=d=e&v=e&n=s3haq753d97642c73&w=sq86hkjt84djt8cqj&e=sajt54h96d53cak54&s=sk972h2dakqct9862]399|300|[/hv] West North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♣* Pass 2♠ All Pass To be fair, this wasn't the auction that ended in 2♠.. that one was by The_hog and his partner where WEST bid a very constructive 2♠ which was passed out. But this is how the first/second seat drury convention would have worked. Note how the other 15 tables got much too high after EAST opened "light". 4SEx-3 800 114SEx-2 500 5.64SEx-2 500 5.64SEx-2 500 5.64SE-3 300 1.073NW-3 300 1.074SE-2 200 -1.533NE-2 200 -1.534SE-2 200 -1.534SE-2 200 -1.533SE-2 200 -1.534SE-2 200 -1.533SE-1 100 -4.133SE-1 100 -4.133SE-1 100 -4.132SE= -110 -8.33 I don't know what you mean by East opening "Light". It is a fine opening bid. But to treat the West hand as anything more than a raise to 2♠ is relying too much on plain HCP IMO. ♣QJ bare, unsuuported ♦J, no Aces make this a very poor 10 point hand. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 I don't know what you mean by East opening "Light". It is a fine opening bid. I was mearly reporting the hand, and showing a type of situation where the drury-thingee would work nice after first/second seat opening. I put light in quotes, because to be honest this is a sound opening bid for me, yet, my auction would have died in 2♠ as shown above. The results of the auction speak for themsevles, 9 pairs out of 16 in 4S, many doubled, 2 pairs in 3NT, and 5 pairs in 3S. You get rull credit for being able to stop in 2♠. There is no real trick to it, if you play constructive raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 I don't know what you mean by East opening "Light". It is a fine opening bid. I was mearly reporting the hand, and showing a type of situation where the drury-thingee would work nice after first/second seat opening. I put light in quotes, because to be honest this is a sound opening bid for me, yet, my auction would have died in 2♠ as shown above. The results of the auction speak for themsevles, 9 pairs out of 16 in 4S, many doubled, 2 pairs in 3NT, and 5 pairs in 3S. You get rull credit for being able to stop in 2♠. There is no real trick to it, if you play constructive raise. I thought that Drury was to be bid on hands which are strong enough for the 3 level, but allowing the bidding to die at the two level in case partner is (sub)-minimum. Since this hand isn't strong enough for the 3 level (despite what all the players holding it thought), it doesn't really show the benefits of Drury. Change the hand to ♠Q86 ♥KJT84 ♦A82 ♣32 and maybe you have a point. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 :D Simply swap ♠K and ♥A in the NS hands and there are 4♠ so I don't think it's a nonsense to play 4♠ with these hands !! B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 :D Simply swap ♠K and ♥A in the NS hands and there are 4♠ so I don't think it's a nonsense to play 4♠ with these hands !! B)Here is is with the cards "swapped" as you requested. [hv=d=e&v=e&n=sk3hq753d97642c73&w=sq86hkjt84djt8cqj&e=sajt54h96d53cak54&s=s972ha2dakqct9862]399|300|[/hv] On this hand, what are the chances to make game, ignoring no 4-1 or 5-0 ♠ split(~32%)? Since you MUST lose 2♦ and 1♥, you need to find both hooks on. That is a 3-1 shot (25%). When you add in that after three rounds of ♦ and East has to ruff, you can see why a 4-1 ♠ split might be problematic. Even on this hand, I suspect after South plays ♦AKQ (ruffed), most EAST will play SOUTH not to have the ♥A, and so will hook the ten and STILL GO DOWN, when the ♥A and ♠K are "on side". This is still a horrible game contract. Let's do the math... under the assumption it is down anytime there is a 4-1 or 5-0 trump split (4-1 is 28.3%, 5-0 is 3.9%) and ignoring that when it is really wrong, it will be doubled like it was so many times in the real world. So 67.8% of the time when ♠ are not 5-0 or 4-1, you will make 1 out of 4 times (two finesses one). This works out to be, 67.8%x25%~ 17% chance. So if you bid game 100 times with this holding, you would make 17 times for 17x620=net 10,540 pts, of the other times you bid this game, you will go down at least one instead of being +170 (if both hooks are off, you go down at least two, and if both hooks are off and you run into the bad split you are off at least two and maybe 3 doubled)... But to keep it simple, let's call it off only one, for a loss of just 100 pts... 83x100 = 8300, which is less than the 10,500. But, you also lose the 140 you could have scored so this 8300 becomes a net loss of 19,920 and of course this number will be much higher than this (for down two and three on some of these 83 hands, not to mention doubled on some of them). No this is a horrible game contract no matter how you split the opponents cards. That there are some distribution of NS cards that allow it to make, not withstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 I totally agree with you Ben :D when you say it is an awful game but it comes from the fact that the west hand is only a 2♠ bid (no ace, 3♠, flat and +/- wasted QJ and J !!) So if a lot of tables were too high, it's because of a bad treatment of the west hand imo Alain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 I totally agree with you Ben :D when you say it is an awful game but it comes from the fact that the west hand is only a 2♠ bid (no ace, 3♠, flat and +/- wasted QJ and J !!) So if a lot of tables were too high, it's because of a bad treatment of the west hand imo Alain A popular auction was... 1♠-1NT (forcing)2♣-3♠Pass I suspect that the 1NT bidders where hoping to here a 2♥ bid by opener, and once they heard a 2♣ bid, now 2♠ is a huge underbid, while a jump to 3♥ should show 11-12 with three card support. Being vul and at imps, and with a fair five card suit (KJTxx) they pushed. I am not defending them of course, I like my 1NT to deny 3 card support, and I raise with support more immediately. I simply report what happened here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwiggins Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 Over 1M-2C-2D-2M, ---> 2Nt by opener is asking responder to show where he has some stuff, and new suit is looking for help there. Over 1M-2C-2D-2M, ---> 3M is simply bid game with 11-12, pass with 8/9, use judgement with 10.A reasonable alternative would be to use the invite scheme as you used to use after 1M-2M, which you may well be doing. My personal preference is 2M+1 = Kokish game try and higher bids = short game tries or Bergen's methods where 2NT = ask for doubleton or shorter and other bids = short suit game tries. Over 2D, 2NT and 3NT show balanced hands. 2NT shows 11-12 balanced (or excellent 10), and 3NT shows 13-15, 4NT shows 16-18. All these NT bids deny three card support. Over 1M-2C-2M----> 3NT can be stronger than 13-15 since partner is announcing a yucky hand, you will not want to jump to 4NT with 16 or 17 balanced, as his likely 11/12 and no fit you have no where to go. Including the balanced hands means that 2/1 can show a 5+ card suit, which would make Fred Gitelman (and me) happy because a 2/1 shows a 5+ card suit. And while Gitelman resorts to using 2S over 1H and 3C over 1S to show the strong raise, your scheme lets 2NT stay Jacoby. The one semi-problematic auction is 1S-2C-2H. Here 2H shows 4H's but does not promise anything extra. Now you have to separate your weak hands from your strong hands when you have heart support. To do this, I use, an immediate 2S as weaker hand with spade support, 3S as intermediate hand with spade support (not forcing), and 3H as balanced hand with four card fit (the 10/11-12 point hand). IF I have a TRUE 2/1 GF hand, I rebid a forcing 3C (promising true 2/1 GF values) and opener rebids 3D to see what else I have. Now 3H or 3S show support and set trumps. Of course over 2H I could have jumped to 4H or 4S as a picture bid. Did you consider removing the balanced invite from 2C and putting it back in with 1NT? That might let you separate the hands easily, and the semi-forcing 1NT would be fairly close to what I use over 3rd and 4th seat openers. To deal with interference, which is risky here for the opponents anyway, I use Garrozzo 2/3 dbls. by openerWhat are Garrozzo 2/3 doubles? I really like the idea of trying to clarify 1NT and let 3-card raises stop at 2M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 Did you consider removing the balanced invite from 2C and putting it back in with 1NT? That might let you separate the hands easily, and the semi-forcing 1NT would be fairly close to what I use over 3rd and 4th seat openers. To deal with interference, which is risky here for the opponents anyway, I use Garrozzo 2/3 dbls. by openerWhat are Garrozzo 2/3 doubles? I really like the idea of trying to clarify 1NT and let 3-card raises stop at 2M. 1) I initially left the balanced invite hand in with the 1NT and just had 2♣ as either true 2/1 GF of "drury". A couple problems occurred, because of my ultra light opening style. 1M-1NT; 2m-2NT happened where I belong in 2M anyway. 2ND, what do you do with balanced better than invite? If 1NT, then 1NT has to be forcing rather than semi-forcing. Finally, I found a better use for a 1NT response followed by 2NT than to show the balanced hand. I use it to seperate some really good 2/1 responses from the dogs. For instance, how do you play this auction.... 1S-1NT2S-3D ? Is 3C deathly weak and can't stand spades, or is it a fairly good hand just short of bidding 2D initially? I separate between these two by using a good/bad 2NT complex here (actually following Marshal Miles's suggestion of reverse good/bad). See the unloading 1NT thread at... Unloaded 1NT Forcing I got Garozzo 2/3 Doubles from ETM Victory system. Basically, a G2/3x occurs in a forcing pass situation below game when we have shown the majority of the hcp, and a direct seat double shows 2 or 3 cards in the suit the opponents bid (hence the double). So obviously a pass shows 1 or 4 or more (hence not 2 or 3). Cue-bids show a void, and direct bids are typicaly show minimum values. After the direct seat double showing 2 or 3 cards, if partner has legnth in this suit too, he can pass. Of if he is short, he clearly bids. The good news, after a direct pass, the balancing partner can double with both length or shortness (of course if they are at two, and you have a singleton or void, you may be wise not to double), and your partner will figure out what to do. When in doubt with shortness, bid. These doubles are great after your side has used a forcing double or a made a negative double and the opponents bid again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwiggins Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 I was suggesting that only the invitiational balanced hands be put back in with a semi-forcing NT. This would be consistent with Bocchi and Duboin's use of 1M-2C.1) 5+ clubs and 11+ HCP2) Balanced hand with and without fit (12+ HCP)3) Limit raise with 3-cards4) Strong hand with fit While I like to open light also, when I am in the 6-10 HCP range with 5M-4m, I think I prefer telling partner I am weak by using Muiderburg Twos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 I was suggesting that only the invitiational balanced hands be put back in with a semi-forcing NT. This would be consistent with Bocchi and Duboin's use of 1M-2C.1) 5+ clubs and 11+ HCP2) Balanced hand with and without fit (12+ HCP)3) Limit raise with 3-cards4) Strong hand with fit While I like to open light also, when I am in the 6-10 HCP range with 5M-4m, I think I prefer telling partner I am weak by using Muiderburg Twos. I also use mulderberg... With the balanced hands, good 10ish to 12 and two card fit, I still use 2C and if partner rebids 2M, I pass and play in the 5-2 or 6-2 major fit. IF you start 1NT, you have no choice but to rebid 2NT to get across the stregth of your hand. So I guess this is a matter of personal style. Also, this auction, 1M-2C-2M-Pass... now leaves an air of uncertainty. The 2C bidder may have good 8hcp and 3 card fit, or no real fit (doubleton) and 11. This makes balancing very dicey for the opponents...as a number of juicy penalties on a part-score can occur. But who would ever balance back in on 1M-1NT-2any-2NT-P ? Anyway, this works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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