Gerben42 Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 - ants that walk too far when returning to their home base after their legs have been artificially elongated (do they count steps?) African or European ants? :) I don't know, but there's a number of documented cases. Newspaper Reporter: Did you feel anything special at the moment your son died? Mother: Yes, I was sitting in the bus and I suddenly felt a shiver and I knew that something was wrong with my son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 Why do you sometimes know what your best friend or loved one is going to say? That's ESP right? No, you know from past experiences with them and also their breathing timing and the way their lips move together that A ) They're going to say somethingB ) What letter that something starts withC ) How they think and interact in generalD ) What they have said in situations like this in the past. Given all that you can determine with great accuracy what they're going to say in a given situation sometimes. Add to that: voice. It happened to me twice that I knew in advance someone was about to tell me in the phone that a close friend just died unexpectedly. There's nothing strange about that. We pay more attention to the way something is said, than what is being said. You can comfort a Japanese child (or dog) by speaking English (or Gibberish) to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 OK, if that's the definition then it's possible that ESP really exists. I thought ESP was something supernatural. Anyway, my suspicion is that almost all "documented" ESP cases are either random events as described by Gerben, or some psycological phenomen like deja-vu, the placebo effect etc. I guess it's just the way you think about it. It's like UFOs. Do UFOs exist? Of course...lots of stuff flying up there that we were unable to identify. Were they aliens? I doubt it. Does ESP exist? I believe it does. Is it supernatural? I don't see why. These are just senses that we haven't yet documented. To me, supernatural is self-contractictory. If ghosts and telepathy exist, well, then ghosts and telepathy are natural. To me, there's a trichotomy out there...1. Everything can already by explained by the science we currently have.2. There are things that we cannot explain through science, but could be explained with science with enough time, resources, and brains.3. There are those things which cannot be explained by science (besides love, of course). To deny UFOs and ESP exist puts you in the first camp. To claim that they're "supernatural" puts you in the third. Put me firmly in the second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 ~~3. There are those things which cannot be explained by science (besides love, of course). To deny UFOs and ESP exist puts you in the first camp. To claim that they're "supernatural" puts you in the third. Put me firmly in the second. why "... besides love, of course?" ... maybe i'm offbase here, but are you saying one of these: 1) metaphysical entities don't exist, or;2) metaphsical entities can be explained by science3) metaphsical entities cannot be explained by science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 OK, if that's the definition then it's possible that ESP really exists. I thought ESP was something supernatural. Anyway, my suspicion is that almost all "documented" ESP cases are either random events as described by Gerben, or some psycological phenomen like deja-vu, the placebo effect etc. I guess it's just the way you think about it. It's like UFOs. Do UFOs exist? Of course...lots of stuff flying up there that we were unable to identify. Were they aliens? I doubt it. Does ESP exist? I believe it does. Is it supernatural? I don't see why. These are just senses that we haven't yet documented. To me, supernatural is self-contractictory. If ghosts and telepathy exist, well, then ghosts and telepathy are natural. To me, there's a trichotomy out there...1. Everything can already by explained by the science we currently have.2. There are things that we cannot explain through science, but could be explained with science with enough time, resources, and brains.3. There are those things which cannot be explained by science (besides love, of course). To deny UFOs and ESP exist puts you in the first camp. To claim that they're "supernatural" puts you in the third. Put me firmly in the second. I always find this UFO question quite silly. Of course there are UFO's. Of course they exist. UFO's are unidentified flying objects. All kinds of flying objects are unidentified. That does not make them alien flying saucers. :PI also worry about people who say they do not believe in UFO's. Do they not believe in clouds? Yes, the definition of ESP must include extra senses. Does anyone have one, not that I know of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 why "... besides love, of course?" It was a joke, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 ~~3. There are those things which cannot be explained by science (besides love, of course). why "... besides love, of course?" ... maybe i'm offbase here, but are you saying one of these: 1) metaphysical entities don't exist, or;2) metaphsical entities can be explained by science3) metaphsical entities cannot be explained by science Not sure why love would count as "metaphysical". As I see it, love is a concrete phenomena, reasonably well-explained by science. Of course it depends how excactly you define "love" and how excatly you define "metaphysical". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 To me, supernatural is self-contradictory That hits the nail on the head. What I'm interested in is this: Do mediums believe in the supernatural? I know at least one person who used to work as astrologer, knowing full well that it is nonsense. I wonder how widespread this is. How many mediums are aware they are just telling people what they want to hear rather than really contacting the dead / having healing powers? We had a famous case in the Netherlands of a TV personality (Silvia Millecam) who was told by a medium that she didn't really have cancer but just an inflammation that would go away with her therapy, and that she should really not go see a doctor. As you can imagine this "therapy" led to a quick detoriation of her condition and then real medicine couldn't really do much anymore... After her death the DA filed charges against the medium but she was let off as there was insufficient evidence that she was responsible for Silvia Millecams decision not to see a doctor. Although some merit has been shown of this placebo effect (people feel better because they are being told they feel better) I think this case shows the danger of these practices. When people are discouraged to do the sensible thing and trust the judgement of real doctors they can really be a threat to the health of unsuspecting people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Not sure why love would count as "metaphysical". As I see it, love is a concrete phenomena, reasonably well-explained by science. Of course it depends how excactly you define "love" and how excatly you define "metaphysical". ok, forget love (for now)... i'd still be interested in knowing how folks answer those questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 I believe in ESP. I live in ESPaña :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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