partner bids new suit after I have shown 2?

[jillybean]

Hi,

 

P (1♠) 2♣ (2♠)

P (P) 3♦ (DBL)

3♥?

 

I am holding x,Axx,KJxx,AKQxx

 

I have been caught out twice recently with this type of hand & bidding. We have been in a competitive auction; I have show a strong 2 suited hand and my partner has then bid a new suit; intending to play; but I have taken another bid.

 

Please explain the auction

tyia

jb

[keylime]

JB,

 

A takeout double of 1S is a decent call to make here because not only do you have strength, but you have 2 places to play with tolerance for the 3rd.

 

What this does is allow partner to take a call over the 2S continuation with values or lack of values. It also helps you value the A-x-x of hearts which might be key to the hand.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

a 3H bid with the meaning to play does not exist.

 

He had the chance to open, he had the chance

to bid it over 2S, no way that he can now introduce

a suit of his own, I asked for a preference,

he has to give one.

 

3H is a lead director promissing support, unclear

which suit (most likely for diamonds), bid 4C and

see if he converts to diamond, you may even think

about 5C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

Hi,

 

P (1♠) 2♣ (2♠)

P (P) 3♦ (DBL)

3♥?

 

I am holding x,Axx,KJxx,AKQxx

 

I have been caught out twice recently with this type of hand & bidding. We have been in a competitive auction; I have show a strong 2 suited hand and my partner has then bid a new suit; intending to play; but I have taken another bid.

 

Please explain the auction

tyia

jb

I'm curious to see what the experts say.

 

For me, it shows one of two hands:

 

-A hand with long hearts (6+++) too weak to bid them at the 3 level, but doesn't like diamonds.

 

-A hand with semi-long hearts (usually 5, could be 4) that can't stand diamonds. He's hoping to get away at 3♥ undoubled, and if he gets X'd, he'll run to 4 clubs.

 

Either way, he's bidding because he expects 3♦ to go down.

 

Just curious, why didn't you X 2♠? You hand is perfect for it, and it keeps partner from having to correct to 4♣.

[paulg]

Hi,

 

P (1♠) 2♣ (2♠)

P (P) 3♦ (DBL)

3♥?

 

I am holding x,Axx,KJxx,AKQxx

 

I have been caught out twice recently with this type of hand & bidding. We have been in a competitive auction; I have show a strong 2 suited hand and my partner has then bid a new suit; intending to play; but I have taken another bid.

 

Please explain the auction

tyia

jb

Marlowe has explained the 3♥ call in the auction as given.

 

Dwayne has suggested that some would consider doubling 1♠ rather than 2♣. With this strength of hand I think that many would double initially, but I think that most would double 2♠ for takeout if they overcalled 2♣.

 

This hand is not really a 2-suited hand, it is a 3-suited hand. Overcalling and then doubling suggests this shape or similar (as with 1435 most would double first) and gets all the suits into play.

[jtfanclub]

P_Marlowe...

 

I don't think 2♥ was ever an option, since partner's odds-on for 4 spades, and most people won't open 2♥ with 4 spades. To bid 3♥ over 2♠ would take far more points than he's likely to have.

 

If I had, say...

 

Qxxx

JTxxxx

x

xx

 

I'd much rather say 3♥ than 4(!) clubs. I don't see how this can possibly be a support anything over a penalty double.

Edited May 14, 2007 by jtfanclub

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

-A hand with long hearts (6+++) too weak to bid them at the 3 level, but doesn't like diamonds.

 

-A hand with semi-long hearts (usually 5, could be 4) that can't stand diamonds.  He's hoping to get away at 3♥ undoubled, and if he gets X'd, he'll run to 4 clubs. 

<snip>

- and too weak to open 2H?

- and he really believes the oppoents

wont double him although everyone

at the table knows about the missfit?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: And he also denied a fit passing 2S.

[jillybean]

I didnt double over 1♠ because I dont have 4♥'s and I think 2♣/3♦ describes my strength and shape accurately. Is it better to play in a 4-3♥ fit,and at what level than to find a minor game or nt?

 

For those saying 3♥ to play does not exist, I have had this auction with 2 (expert) partners recently who think it does.

[Finch]

Assuming the double of 3♦ is penalties, 3♥ is definitely to play. It can't really be anything else.

 

As for the strong hand:

i) I would have doubled the 1S opening

ii) If I had overcalled 2C, I would definitely have doubled 2S (typically showing a 1-3-3-6 distribution).

 

Overcalling 2C then bidding 3D shows a hand with lots of minor suit cards.

I'm so far away from actually holding that, it's mildly tempting to raise 3H to 4H. But I wouldn't.

[bid_em_up]

Assuming the double of 3♦ is penalties, 3♥ is definitely to play. It can't really be anything else.

 

As for the strong hand:

i) I would have doubled the 1S opening

ii) If I had overcalled 2C, I would definitely have doubled 2S (typically showing a 1-3-3-6 distribution).

 

Overcalling 2C then bidding 3D shows a hand with lots of minor suit cards.

I'm so far away from actually holding that, it's mildly tempting to raise 3H to 4H. But I wouldn't.

I agree with Frances.

 

I would expect some sort of 3-6-2-2 or 4-6-2-1 hand from partner.

 

Some people don't like to open a weak two bid when holding 3-4 cards in the other major. Or the hand may be so weak that a weak 2 bid just isn't plausible.

 

Doubling initially practically assures your side of finding your best fit. It isn't quite as important to hold 4 hearts with this hand, as you have extra values which will tend to compensate for only having three hearts.

 

Bidding 2C first, then doubling 2S would also work in this case.

 

3D is totally misdescriptive of the hand, imo.

[pclayton]

I would have doubled initially, and I would certainly have doubled a second time. 3♦ suggests a very good 1=2=4=6 / 0=2=5=6 / 0=1=5=7 or so that has safety at the 4 level.

 

While pard is running for daylight, we have not shown a semblance of a fit. I would expect 7 weak hearts and out. With 6 so-so hearts, I think pard is going back to 4♣ on all but specifically a 4=6=2=1.

 

I have an awesome dummy for hearts, but the problem is that the diamonds are wedged behind us.

 

Still, at IMPs, I'd try 4♥ and risk that they'll lead a spade, or pard has a stiff ♦, or the ♥K. Even with 6 hearts we have a good play for game.

[SoTired]

Hi,

 

a 3H bid with the meaning to play does not exist.

 

He had the chance to open, he had the chance

to bid it over 2S, no way that he can now introduce

a suit of his own, I asked for a preference,

he has to give one.

 

3H is a lead director promissing support, unclear

which suit (most likely for diamonds), bid 4C and

see if he converts to diamond, you may even think

about 5C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

NO - NO - NO

 

3H is to play. If advancer had diam support, advancer would pass the penalty dbl. Advancer is showing 6+ hearts in a hand that does not have support for either minor.

 

2C then 3D is a very strong minor hand, likely 4-6. You are not strong enough to play 4C opposite a weak hand with a doubleton club. You have 1-3-4-5 and very strong. Listen to Francis. A takeout dbl only promises 3+ in unbid majors.

[skjaeran]

I agree with the 2♣ overcall, eventhough I've got no problem with a double. 3♦ is sick. It shows far more distribution than this. A double of 2♠ is absolutely automatic.

 

3♥ shows a long weak ♥ suit in a hand that for some reason couldn't make a preempt. Either too weak or uncomfortable ♠ length, either 4621 or 3721. We don't know the vulnerability or scoring, nor the preemting style. I'll pass 3♥. At IMPs I just might raise to 4♥.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

a 3H bid with the meaning to play does not exist.

 

He had the chance to open, he had the chance

to bid it over 2S, no way that he can now introduce

a suit of his own, I asked for a preference,

he has to give one.

 

3H is a lead director promissing support, unclear

which suit (most likely for diamonds), bid 4C and

see if he converts to diamond, you may even think

about 5C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

NO - NO - NO

 

3H is to play. If advancer had diam support, advancer would pass the penalty dbl. Advancer is showing 6+ hearts in a hand that does not have support for either minor.

 

2C then 3D is a very strong minor hand, likely 4-6. You are not strong enough to play 4C opposite a weak hand with a doubleton club. You have 1-3-4-5 and very strong. Listen to Francis. A takeout dbl only promises 3+ in unbid majors.

Hi,

 

I will put it this way, the overcaller showed 6-4 in the minor,

6-5 being more likely, the only restriction on the shape / HCP

being, that overcaller did not bid 2NT / 4NT, i.e. the possibility

that I am void in heart is large.

Do you really believe that it is an valid option to introduce a

6 card suit on the 3 level which was not worth mentioning as a

weak 2?

 

If you want to play your own suit, you need to be sure, that you

make it or be down -1 at most, because you will get doubled and

pray that 3D / 4C goes down one more, ... and pray hard, because

partner wont understand it, if he was right and you tried to rescue

him, because he was prepared to play 4C without any promise of

finding a fit.

 

You can argue, that dealer has a hand unsuitable for a weak two 6-4

in the mayor, or a 3 card side suit, fair enough, but than, nobody

asked partner to jump in.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Halo]

3H is to play. You have a very good hand. If you choose to go for game, OK.

[Codo]

In a way I agree with Marlowe that a 3 ♥ bid does not exist.

You have shown a hand with about 6 clubs and 5 diamonds, so 3 Heart to play is no real option.

Why 6-5? With 5-5 you had bid your diamonds first, with 6(5)-4 you had never introduced your second suit at the 3 level without any sign of life from pd, which leaves a 6-5 hand as the only possibility I see for your bidding.

 

On the other hand, this can hardly be some kind of forward going move, because with a good hand Pd had raised clubs earlier or would happy sit for 3 Diamond doubled.

 

At the table I had passed this bid and had been very interessted to see his hand, because I really have no idea how a hand will look like, that fits his bidding.

[jtfanclub]

You have shown a hand with about 6 clubs and 5 diamonds, so 3 Heart to play is no real option.

Why 6-5? With 5-5 you had bid your diamonds first, with 6(5)-4 you had never introduced your second suit at the 3 level without any sign of life from pd, which leaves a 6-5 hand as the only possibility I see for your bidding.

1. If you had a 6-5 hand strong enough to force to the 4 level, would you really overcall 2♣? Or would you bid 2NT as a strong Michaels? You're going to be really embarrassed when you end up playing 2♣ when other tables are at 6 or 7. I mean, you're pushing partner to the 4 level when you could let them have it for a part score. This can't be a sacrifice.

 

I think it has to be 6-4. Let's say, oh,

 

x

Qx

AKJT

AKQ9xx

 

Wrong shape for Michaels, and strong enough for a self-reverse.

 

2. Combine it with my example hand for 3♥

 

Qxxx

JTxxxx

x

xx

 

After the X of 3♦, 3♦ is definitely out, 4♣ looks down 1 against reasonable opponents, but 3♥ looks excellent. It could actually be a king stronger, and still wouldn't open 2♥ (too many spades) or bid 3♥ over 2♠.

 

3. If you don't think the bid has a meaning, then why not have it mean 6+ hearts and prefer clubs to diamonds? Partner could always be 0-2-5-6 even if you do think it requires a 6-5 hand for the 3♦ bid, and partner can always correct to 4♣ without harm.

[han]

Of course 3H exists, and it is to play.

 

I also agree with double initially and definitely on the second turn. 3D shows a very different hand, perhaps x x AJxxx AKJ10xx.

[whereagles]

This seems to fall under the rule: "Any undiscussed bid is NATURAL" :P

[helene_t]

It's not a practical agreement that a dbl of 1♠ always shows four hearts. With your singleton spade, a 4-3 fit in hearts won't be that bad since partner will be able to ruff on the short side.

 

2♣ followed by double is an alternative. Certainly not 2♣ followed by 3♦. I would certainly expect a 7-card clubs for that bid since you force partner to take preference at the 4-level.

 

3♥ is to play. Partner has xxx-xxxxxxx-xx-x. Partner expects you to pass with a void hearts. With 3-card support it's not unreasonable to raise to 4, but you'll have to take the blame if it's too high.

[mike777]

I didnt double over 1♠ because I dont have 4♥'s and I think 2♣/3♦ describes my strength and shape accurately. Is it better to play in a 4-3♥ fit,and at what level than to find a minor game or nt?

 

For those saying 3♥ to play does not exist, I have had this auction with 2 (expert) partners recently who think it does.

My two cents worth.

 

1) If you got 3 suits and only 3 cards in the unbid major but excellent 13+hcp or more, make a takeout x.

 

2) If you really prefer 2club overcall, cool, just x when 2spades comes around to you. X shows stiff in spades, perfect. :P

[jdonn]

I hate when people try to find a logical reason why a bid can't show what it completely sounds like the bid shows. Partner bid hearts when you showed two other suits, so he has a lot of hearts and was too weak to bid them before. To think otherwise is to overcomplicate the simplest of matters.

 

I put arguing that 3♥ either doesn't show hearts or is impossible in the same class of arguments that a new suit in competition by a passed hand promises some kind of support for partner.

[jillybean]

Ok without my bad bidding:

 

P (1♠) 2♣ (2♠)

P (P) 3♦ (DBL)

3♥?

 

In this auction, the 3♥ bidder has long weak ♥'s

and wants to play there, holding something like Qxx, QJxxxx,xx,xx

(this is the hand my partner held)

 

The 2♣ bidder should have something like x,x,AKJxx,AKQxxx

[Codo]

This is the problem for all the 3 ♥ = natural bidders. There is nearly no hand you can construct where it makes sense to play 3 Heart and not 3 Diamond or 4 Club.

I think you must have about xxx,JT9876543,x,x to construct such a hand.

 

In Jans example 3 Heart worked because pd besides strong minors has Qx in heart.

In Jills example, pd introduced a new 6 card suit instead of playing in a minor. SO if this was to play, t makes me shiver. Why play in a possible 6-o or 6-1 fit when you habe a 6 (7) 2- Fit avaiable?

 

I agree that a meaning for 3 Heart like: Is natural and will prefer Clubs to diamonds is the nicest way to play it, but I doubt that this is mainstream.

 

What makes me real wonder are the people who believe that 3 Diamond shows a 4 card suit.

Even if you do not use

P (1♠) 2♣ (2♠)

p p 2 NT

for this hand (primary clubs, secodary diamonds), I doubt that 3 Diamond is a good idea with a 7-4 hand which was not strong enough to double 1 Spade.

 

So I would still play my pd for a 6-5 hand in the "in between" range.

[han]

The 2♣ bidder should have something like x,x,AKJxx,AKQxxx

That hand is too strong. I'd start with 2NT followed by some number of clubs.

 

The hand I gave is weaker (x x AJxxx AKJ10xx) and the clubs are much better than the diamonds. That's what I'd expect for the bidding. A strong 4-6 is also possible.

 

In response to an earlier comment by you, we don't double because we think the 4-3 heart fit will play better, we double because we want to find a 5-3 heart fit or better.