Do you go on?

[ewj]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=saxhkqxxdajcaxxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

RHO opens 3♠ and you decide to double.

LHO raises this to 4♠ and partner bids 5[H]...do you bid on?

[mike777]

Dealer: East Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ Ax ♥ KQxx ♦ AJ ♣ Axxxx

 

RHO opens 3♠ and you decide to double.

LHO raises this to 4♠ and partner bids 5[H]...do you bid on?

YEs.

 

Partner did not bid x for some reason at equal vul.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

No.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[sheepman]

pass...its just so obvious!

[pclayton]

Yes I make a move.

 

Pard has more than A-6th of hearts and a stiff spade; but even then slam may make with the right fitting hand and a little luck. Weak hands with a single suiter pass 4♠, but pull the 2nd double.

 

Pard also has more than 5 decent hearts and a 10 count. Hands like this make a responsive double.

 

Pard could have made a strong invite to 6 via 4N...5x - 5♥. If I heard that auction with this hand, I'd be making noises toward a grand.

 

I expect something along the lines of: x, ATxxxx, Kxxx, xx at a minimum, so I'll move on.

[mike777]

exactly, my guess is partner had the real problem on this hand :)

[han]

I'm all for taking it easy on partner when they are in a tough spot, but this is so much! I guess I'd go on, and on the way I might as well bid 5S.

[inquiry]

I like my aces... still, i have a lot of losing clubs and the wrong number of spades. I would like 3!S and 1!D a lot better. So after looking for some sort of inspiration, I would pass if none shows up. If six red robins go flying by the window before I bid, i will change my mind and bid on.

[kenrexford]

I'll invite slam.

 

Seriously, I'll pass. Seems simple to me. I doubled 3♠ with five tricks and a fit for hearts. Partner expects that and bids 5♥. Why am I excited about the hand I just showed him and that he relied upon me having when he bid 5♥?

 

My spade doubleton is horrible. I'd much prefer a stiff with AKJxx in clubs.

 

My club suit is horrible -- see above.

 

My diamond suit is horrible -- at least with AQ tight I may have a good shot at ditching the spade loser and hoping for clubs to come in.

 

Give me Ax-KQxx-AQ-AJxxx, and I have a problem.

 

The given hand is awful.

[cherdano]

I like my aces... still, i have a lot of losing clubs and the wrong number of spades. I would like 3!S and 1!D a lot better. So after looking for some sort of inspiration, I would pass if none shows up. If six red robins go flying by the window before I bid, i will change my mind and bid on.

Against opponents who have 10 spades on this auction, I definitely prefer to have ♠Ax opposite partner's singleton than ♠Axx opposite partner's void!

[kenrexford]

I like my aces... still, i have a lot of losing clubs and the wrong number of spades. I would like 3!S and 1!D a lot better. So after looking for some sort of inspiration, I would pass if none shows up. If six red robins go flying by the window before I bid, i will change my mind and bid on.

Against opponents who have 10 spades on this auction, I definitely prefer to have ♠Ax opposite partner's singleton than ♠Axx opposite partner's void!

What makes you so sure that the opponents have ten spades?

 

Sure, I'd also rather have Ax than Axx, but x is a world better than either, if I can put my Ace somewhere else.

[mike777]

I like my aces... still, i have a lot of losing clubs and the wrong number of spades. I would like 3!S and 1!D a lot better. So after looking for some sort of inspiration, I would pass if none shows up. If six red robins go flying by the window before I bid, i will change my mind and bid on.

Against opponents who have 10 spades on this auction, I definitely prefer to have ♠Ax opposite partner's singleton than ♠Axx opposite partner's void!

What makes you so sure that the opponents have ten spades?

 

Sure, I'd also rather have Ax than Axx, but x is a world better than either, if I can put my Ace somewhere else.

partner has bid 5h for some reason not pass or x at both nv.

 

It may help discussion if people list the hands they think partner has. :)

[jdonn]

Pass, I'll say it till I'm blue in the face but time has shown when you have a guess in these situations to go low. Sometimes slam will be making but more often when you have a good hand it's because partner stretched under pressure. I hate having a doubleton spade, and I'm better than partner expects for the double but not a ton better.

 

xx AJxxxxx Kx xx

x AJTxxx Kxx xxx

x AJxxxx Qxxx Qx

 

And so on.

[Guest Jlall]

ty jdonn, pass.

[mikeh]

Pass

 

I would be tempted to bid on with Ax KQxx Ax AJxxx since this gives me far more chance of 12 tricks... but I am with josh in terms of attitude under pressure. There is little worse feeling for partner than to make an aggressive, but thoughtful, bid under pressure and have partner bid one too many. Stay fixed.. if slam is good... too bad.

[Fluffy]

What makes you so sure that the opponents have ten spades?

 

Sure, I'd also rather have Ax than Axx, but x is a world better than either, if I can put my Ace somewhere else.

They might have 11, but anyway partner has bid 5♥ to make, he cannot have 2, maybe 3 yes, but never 2.

 

On a 1732 with ♥A we already have a small chance at 6♥ so lets bid on, should we give a free 7 trial?, I am happy if we find 6 even if 7 is cold.

[pclayton]

I'll say it till I'm blue in the face but time has shown when you have a guess in these situations to go low. Sometimes slam will be making but more often when you have a good hand it's because partner stretched under pressure.

 

There is little worse feeling for partner than to make an aggressive, but thoughtful, bid under pressure and have partner bid one too many. Stay fixed.. if slam is good... too bad.

 

I think Josh and Mike and being a bit glib about this matter. If this is an important team game, missing a good slam is a big deal; its 11-13 IMPs; the same as missing / misdefending / misplaying a game. Bidding a slam that goes down is the same swing.

 

In the big matches I've kibbed, I just don't see hands like this passing as often as many would imagine. I understand the concept of 'staying fixed', but like all rules, it can become overdone. If your judgement is telling you that you should bid, but you are wrapping yourself up in a security blanket saying you need to stay fixed, then I think you are doing yourself a disservice to yourself, your partner and your teammates.

 

Bidding a grand at IMPs, that needs very good (67%) odds to come home is a different matter entirely. Coupled with the occasional concept that sometimes the other table is stopping in game (remember the 7♦ that Fu bid in the '06 Vanderbilt?), bidding a grand can be a real sketchy proposition.

 

I don't know what this tendency comes from, but I think it might have a little to do with the rubber bridge background that many of us were raised with. There is a real incentive not to trust partner's bidding and just 'take the money' by staying low, instead of really trying to figure out what pard's bids mean and making the best call.

 

I think the other cause is playing weak or mediocre teams. To beat a weak team, all you really need to do is bid your games, and capitalize on the mistakes that will come your way. The way to lose a match against a weak team is to bid a few 60% slams that the other table won't bid and get a 4-1 split, or find two kings offside. There is a definite disincentive to stay out of all but the really good slams.

 

Somehow, a missed slam is not stigmatized the same way a missed game is, but the IMPs lost are bascially the same. Its also the same penalty you suffer for doubling a partscore into game. Sure, you aren't bidding a 36% vulnerable slam the way you would agressively try for a game, but how many good slams have you missed because you didn't trust yourself, or trust your pard?

 

For me, the only real way to settle these arguments is a sim. If a sim shows that bidding slam is on balance, wrong, then I'm willing to concede this, but my judgement tells me its not.

 

OTOH, if you saying that bidding slam is a bad idea, because it won't make, that is entirely different matter.

[jdonn]

I never said anything about how missing a slam or not would make me feel, just what the odds are of it being right. I was not raised playing rubber bridge at all, and since I have been playing bridge a short time relatively speaking, I have been on the 'weak team' for a much higher percentage of my bridge playing life than most, so neither of your reasons apply well to me. My point is that time has shown these slams make a lot less often than the judgment of the player suggests it will. There are two reasons. One is that when we have a good hand the odds are much higher than otherwise that partner was stretching. The other is due to the chance suits won't break after the preempt (like you might not get the 3-3 or even 4-2 club break you would need here if you bid a "good" slam since the preempt increases the odds the suit won't break.)

 

Like give partner xx AJTxxxxx Qx x. It's a "good" slam but clubs are a lot less likely to break than otherwise due to the preempt. All of a sudden, not so good any more. Or xx AJxxxx Qxx Kx likewise. Couple with all the hands I showed where slam is bad (see my last post) and I'm pretty convinced I am doing the right thing in the long run, though of course on the particular hand who the heck knows.

 

And don't leave Justin out of the criticism just because he didn't type anything! ;)

[Halo]

I would definitely bid the slam. My hand looks very good after 5♥.

 

I don't dispute the proposition that I may be wrong, could clearly be true, but I am not ready yet to pass out this auction.

[kenrexford]

The partner who is contextually expected to stretch should also be expected to growl when appropriate. Partner did not growl.

[Finch]

Every time I raise on this type on hand on this type of auction slam goes off. I think I've finally learnt to pass.

 

The last time I managed to pass, and slam looked good, but went off on a ruff in the side suit.

[mikeh]

I'll say it till I'm blue in the face but time has shown when you have a guess in these situations to go low. Sometimes slam will be making but more often when you have a good hand it's because partner stretched under pressure.

 

There is little worse feeling for partner than to make an aggressive, but thoughtful, bid under pressure and have partner bid one too many. Stay fixed.. if slam is good... too bad.

 

I think Josh and Mike and being a bit glib about this matter. If this is an important team game, missing a good slam is a big deal; its 11-13 IMPs; the same as missing / misdefending / misplaying a game. Bidding a slam that goes down is the same swing.

 

I think it would have been glib to have posted: 'wtp, stay fixed', but that's not what I said. Clearly this is a problem, and I suggested a quite similar hand (same shape, same hcp) on which I think I might well bid on.

 

It is close: my experience tells me that bidding is a bad decision more often than not. As for the quality of opps and my own teams, I generally, but not always, play on good teams, altho not the super-elite.... in most, but not all, events in which I play, my team will be one of the stronger in the field... so maybe that has biased me, and maybe, if I were to travel more and play 'up' more, my experience would change.

 

As for bidding a slam being the same as bidding a game: that is not my view.

 

It is the same if we are not vulnerable: 50% games and slams are breakeven, but we all know that the imp scale favours low(er) percentage vulnerable games: it does NOT favour lower-percentage vulnerable slams.

 

Another way to look at it is from partner's perspective: imagine the hand-types with which you would bid 5♥... bearing in mind that, on some layouts, you may be bidding out of fear that 4♠ is making rather than because you expect a typical double to yield an 11 trick contract. x Jxxxxxx Kxx xx: would we all sell to 4♠ white v white on this? Opposite x KQxx Axxx Axxx, they have an easy game and our 5♥ is no more than 300... and there is no reason for the doubler to reopen after 4♠ P P.

 

Did I miss slam? If so, then it wasn't for the first time and it won't be for the last time. I'm not trying to be glib... I'm just expressing my philosophy on these hand types.

[neilkaz]

I love my hand..and my only question is whether it is good enough to try for a grand with 5♠. Since the opps may have only 9♠ and may often have a loser somewhere else, I lean towards the simple 6♥ considering most probably the opps have 10+ spades.

 

My only surprise is with those who pass, and it, pardon me is a major suprise. I don't like to hang PD here for stretching to compete to 5♥, but I expect 6♥ to be a large fav. and I plan to whack 6♠ into the next country and once in a while 6♠ may be bid in error by the opps.

 

6♥ in preference to 5♠, with passing being far too wimpy for me with these controls and ♥ cards.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[pclayton]

you may be bidding out of fear that 4♠ is making rather than because you expect a typical double to yield an 11 trick contract. x Jxxxxxx Kxx xx: would we all sell to 4♠ white v white on this? Opposite x KQxx Axxx Axxx, they have an easy game and our 5♥ is no more than 300... and there is no reason for the doubler to reopen after 4♠ P P.

 

This might explain some of the understanding about what constitutes an appropriate 5♥ call.

 

(Flashback): GNT-A, Atlanta - 1st day of qualifying. Pard picks up a 7=3=2=1 with KTxxxxx of spades and out (I might have posted this a long time ago, and I might have the hand a little off). He hears (white / white): 3♣ on his left; double by me, 5♣ on his right and he bids 5♠. I am sitting there with 22 of the finest and bid 6. Down 1. Teammates make some silly fit bid with ♠AJxx over the double, so they play 5♣ x'd down a bunch.

 

(Flashback - more recent): I'm reading a Swiss Teams Match from a Bridge World from 1991 a few months ago: x, Jxx, Jx, JT9xxxx. NV/NV: 3♠ on left, double by pard, 4♠ on right. The recommended action is a pass, followed by a pull of pard's double.

 

Therefore, I believe strongly that a free 5♥ bid in the given sequence shows a real hand, and not just a string of hearts that wants to sac over 4♠.

[whereagles]

I'm gonna bid 6 here. I'm all for giving pard some slack but here I simply have too much.