Vul Game Missed

[Guest Jlall]

[hv=v=b&n=sakxxxhajxxdxxxcx&s=sqjtxhkxxdxxcqjxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

1C opener by west, north overcalled 1S, pass, 2C by south, X(clubs), 2H by north, 2S by south, pass by north.

 

Who gets the blame?

[hrothgar]

This is a tough one:

 

1. I think that North did a nice job describing his hand. In particular, the 2♥ focused attention on the Heart suit. This would (potentially) suggest that South is to blame

 

2. At the same time, would North have bid differently holding a 5=4=2=2 pattern where game had virtually no hope?

 

At the end of the day, you missed game based on 21 HCP that's slightly better than 50% (I think that West's strength increases the odds that he holds the Spade Heart more than his Club length decreases the chance that he holds the Heart Queen)

 

You can't find em all

[Halo]

Looks a good auction.

 

South did well to cue, and then to hold back after the heart bid was good call in my opinion. North showed a bit extra with 2H and for me was right to pass 2S.

[pbleighton]

No one to blame.

 

Peter

[mike777]

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> ????? </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AKxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AJxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> xxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> x </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> QJTx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> Kxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> QJxx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

 

1C opener by west, north overcalled 1S, pass, 2C by south, X(clubs), 2H by north, 2S by south, pass by north.

 

Who gets the blame?

66%% North

34%% South

 

North should just bid 4s over 2c by South and if not then 4s over 2s rebid by south.

South has clear 4s call after 2H by North.

 

I am really surprised people miss this one at Imps. Even NV let alone VUl. I thought this was an easy one, oh well.

[Fluffy]

You don't have to blame ayone for missing a 60% game with 21 combined

[Guest Jlall]

Missing a 60 % game vul at imps is giving up a huge amount of equity (though I don't think it's that good).

 

Even if the heart hook is on you have to do something with the 4th heart.

 

Anyways, obviously some games you must miss but I just wasn't sure this was one of them.

[inquiry]

I will lay some blame, assuming I understand the auction.

 

Let's assume that 2♣ was some sort of spade raise (clearly it was not game force)-- and lets further assume good hand (limit raise) would be covered by something else (maybe jump cue-bid). If that is the case, then 2♥ has to be sound opening bid and willing to participate if advancers hand is satisfactory with heart values. But before we can go to far with this analysis, we need to understand the differences between overcallers options over the double.

 

Clearly 2♣-x-2♠ and opener is sorry he overcalled and is weak :) That leaves the pass and RDBL over the double plus bidding a new suit (like 2♥). The pass risk RHO mucking up the auction with a club raise so I like overcalling showing his pattern (and more than minimum, hence game try) directly over the double. The pass and redouble of the clubs double should have some other implication. I like pass to be roughly unbalanced without second help suit (game try, not weak) with at least three clubs, and redouble even stronger game try with at least three clubs.

 

Advancer has a fourth trump, the fitting heart king, those are all good things. It is true that the QJxx of clubs suggest timid rebid. But if partner is 5431 then the doubleton diamond is working. I think a gentle 2NT probe (over 2♥) might be the right move. First, you could perhaps get to 9 trick 3NT given your club cards (not on this hand of course). If partner was 5422 over 2NT he would rebid 3♠ (or more). With 5440 (void in clubs) he will rebid diamonds. With 55 in the majors, he will rebid hearts. With 5431 he will "cue" his club singleton. So I see an auction like...

 

(1C)-1S-(Ps)-2C

( X)-2H-(Ps)-2N

(Ps)-3C-(Ps)-4S

all pass.

 

VULNERABLE, I would take my chances opposite 5431 and game try by partner. Not vulnerable, I would not be up to the jump to 4♠, but I would try the 3♥ bid over 3♣ and then respect partners decision as long as he took this 3♥ bid as a re-game try without values to go on (If I had extra values, I would bid AGAIN over either 3♠ or 4♠).

 

So if I had to place a blame, I would put it mostly on south for not at least trying.. we are vulnerable at imps after all.

[P_Marlowe]

nobody, I hope I will mirror the auction.

 

2H showed more than min, and 2S showed

that there was nothing to add to 2C.

The double made the South hand worse, thats

it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[awm]

I'd lay the blame on north, such as it is. Suppose you hold the north hand:

 

AKxxx

AJxx

xxx

x

 

You open 1♠ and hear 3♠ limit raise. You are vulnerable at IMPs. Do you bid game? I think we all bid game.

 

So after opening and hearing 2♣ limit raise by partner, you don't have to force to game necessarily since you have more room to explore (and partner could be on three cards, although I think some of us accept a 3-card limit raise on this hand too). But you at least should make a serious effort to get to game.

 

South has already upgraded a nine hcp hand to a limit raise (I agree it's a limit raise, but it's very close since the ♠J is basically a worthless card in the 9-card fit and the ♣QJ are very dubious values that degrade even further after opener's double of 2♣). I don't think 2♥ by overcaller is even an unambiguous try for game (maybe overcaller is 5-5 in the majors and just wants to find the better major, or get to game if there's a big double fit). South is looking at an effective 6-count on this auction (♠J useless, partner almost surely short clubs and the ♣AK behind given the double so ♣QJ worthless, ♠Q+♥K+doubleton is it). Sure it's a nice "6-count" with four trumps but partner's bid doesn't show much if anything extra. Note that game is pretty good here if south held Qxxx Kxx xx xxxx which is nobody's idea of a limit raise.

 

I think north owes partner another try over 2♠. It's true that we still might not get to game because south has so much wastage in clubs, but something like a 3♦ bid (patterning out) might get south to go (now the diamond doubleton is definitely working values).

[pclayton]

They both get some blame, but I think North gets a little more. You simply have to bid these vul games.

 

North is threading the needle with 2♥ and passing 2♠. A direct 2♠ over the double would be drek, and pass and 2♥ would show a little interest in game. I'd guess that pass and 2♥ show about the same values here, but 2♥ is more descriptive. That being said, I'm fine with 2♥, since it may lead to a superior 4-4 fit, but I think passing 2♠ is silly. How often will 8 tricks be the limit? I think I'd make the same 2♥ call with the ♥Q instead of the ♥A. If I had neither, I'd immediately retreat to 2♠.

 

The double turned South off and caused a devaluation of the ♣QJ. Not unreasonable, but the ♥K is a huge card, so is the 4th trump. Even the ruffing value in diamonds is nice. So South gets some demerits for 2 only spades.

 

By the way, I prefer that 3♣ over 1♠ shows a limit raise with 4 trump. Do you not have that agreement?

 

North: 50%

South: 30%

East's Double: 20%

[kenrexford]

It is somewhat difficult to assess the blame without any specifics as to style and technique.

 

For my part, I will guess as to what I hope the style and technique to be, and then assess the blame had two of me had this auction.

 

1♠ is a sound overcall, in my style. When playing IMP's, with anything but unfavorable vulnerability, I'll overcall 2♠ with biddable garbage (even with five spades), pass without biddable garbage, such that a simple 1♠ shows sound values. Generally, a hand I'd open. Now, I'd open most rule-of-19 hands with spades, especially wildly with hearts (easy rebid), so, this hand is about the spade King better than minimum.

 

Advancer's 2♣, I'll assume, shows interest without a specific agreement of a fit. This is a strange call with this hand, as I'd also play that 3♣ shows a four-piece limit raise, which is about what I have. But, I'm OK with that call because of the questionable club position.

 

After the double of 2♣, Overcaller bid 2♥, which seems unquestioably right. However descriptive this is as to pattern, however, it does not fully describe the additional strength. Sure, 2♠ would be weak, but, with 2♣ not promising a spade fit, 2♥ could be bid with a slightly lesser hand, perhaps AQxx in hearts and AJxxx in spades, plus a stiff.

 

Advancer now has two choices. The heart card and fourth spade look really nice. But, as mentioned, the minor situation needs resolved. 3♠ would describe the strength well, but would preempt the auction, sort of. 2♠ understates the hand, but it gives room to partner to make further description.

 

At this point, it seems to me that judgment, and reliance upon partner's judgment, should kick in. If Overcaller had 5422, this is a bad holding, especially after the double of 2♣. Even worse is 5413. But, 5431 looks nice. Well-placed stiff.

 

If partner is aggressive, 2♠ works. Partner, with 5431, will make another call. Hopefully, 3♣ will be a shortness try. If partner is timid, 3♠ works, because partner will value the stiff as well-placed and move. The multitudes of hands without 5431's should also be evaluated right, depending upon style.

 

For whatever it is worth, I think that the long run winner is for Advancer to make the final move (bidding 3♠). This is because I feel that 1♠, initially, should be a values bid, in the long run. If overcalling a simple 1♠ on lesser values appeals to people, and if therefore 2♥ could be much lighter, then perhaps Advancer does better letting partner complete pattern.

 

The downside to this approach, meaning possibly light 1♠, is that Advancer must be stronger to cue. IMO, I like for the cue to possibly be made with what would qualify as a constructive raise had overcaller opened. In other words, I'd like to cue 2♣ with the same hand that overcaller had, but without the club cards (which are meaningless anyway).

 

Of course, on that hand, Advancer will bid 2♠, not 3♠, and the game probably makes. Hopefully my partner is aggressive...

[inquiry]

I'd lay the blame on north, such as it is. Suppose you hold the north hand:

 

AKxxx

AJxx

xxx

x

 

You open 1♠ and hear 3♠ limit raise. You are vulnerable at IMPs. Do you bid game? I think we all bid game.

 

So after opening and hearing 2♣ limit raise by partner, you don't have to force to game necessarily since you have more room to explore (and partner could be on three cards, although I think some of us accept a 3-card limit raise on this hand too). But you at least should make a serious effort to get to game.

 

South has already upgraded a nine hcp hand to a limit raise (I agree it's a limit raise, but it's very close since the ♠J is basically a worthless card in the 9-card fit and the ♣QJ are very dubious values that degrade even further after opener's double of 2♣). I don't think 2♥ by overcaller is even an unambiguous try for game (maybe overcaller is 5-5 in the majors and just wants to find the better major, or get to game if there's a big double fit). South is looking at an effective 6-count on this auction (♠J useless, partner almost surely short clubs and the ♣AK behind given the double so ♣QJ worthless, ♠Q+♥K+doubleton is it). Sure it's a nice "6-count" with four trumps but partner's bid doesn't show much if anything extra. Note that game is pretty good here if south held Qxxx Kxx xx xxxx which is nobody's idea of a limit raise.

 

I think north owes partner another try over 2♠. It's true that we still might not get to game because south has so much wastage in clubs, but something like a 3♦ bid (patterning out) might get south to go (now the diamond doubleton is definitely working values).

Well i don't think 2♣ here was limit raise for the simple reason that it does not have limit raise values. I count 3 hcp in spades, 3 hcp in hearts, but not 3 in clubs. I would count the club values as 1 point maybe. The double did not raise my evaluation of the hand.

 

The next question is how good is this hand? I like ZAR evaluation. IF we assume that partners 2H bid showed more than 26 or 27 ZARS (and it should show a soundish opening bid here), how many ZARS does south have if we 1) dont discount clubs, and 2) do discount clubs.

 

Not discounting clubs.. i have 9 hcp, 1 control point, 10 distributional points, then 3 fit points (two for QJT of spades, one for xx of diamonds with four trumps). That comes to 23 ZARS. In theory, partner needs about 29 zars to make game opposite 23. What does he have? 12 hcp, 5 DP, 13 distributional points. And he gets to add two for the singleton club when I raise. So that is 30 ZAR points without giving him credit for a singleton club in the face fo postential super fit. So ZAR says we have at least one more point than needed for game.

 

Now if I devalue the QJ of clubs (and they are not valueless even opposite a singleton. Imagine partner with a stiff TEN for example, and ruffing finessee might establish a trick. Also can play role in some squeeze endings. And partner might have diamonds, in which case 3NT comes into the picture and they are worth all three points for 3NT contracts.

 

So if you subtract 2 points for QJ, now you have 21 zars. For "best shot" at game according to zar, partner needs 31. Turns out, partner gets to count his shortness after you make a superfit raise, so he has it...

 

And in figuring out south's ZAR points, the heart king is worth just a tad bit more than a king in say diamonds, and having three hearts means the fourth round can be ruffed in your hand (since you have four trumps) if necessary, so that is also an undisclosed plus. This is pretty good little hand after all... even with the full value of clubs totally wasted. 2NT seems clear to me... and that is not to play NT but is a game try in spades.

[Guest Jlall]

2C was a limit raise with 3+ trumps. Maybe you find it aggressive but certainly it's in the realm of possibility. A very strong hand with only 2 spades is possible as well.

 

edit: 3C would be a mixed raise. I thought these were pretty standard agreements.

[Guest Jlall]

I'd lay the blame on north, such as it is. Suppose you hold the north hand:

 

AKxxx

AJxx

xxx

x

 

You open 1♠ and hear 3♠ limit raise.

Your hand is way better opposite a 4 card limit than a 3 card limit and you have room here to find out if partners honors mesh well.

[cherdano]

I'd lay the blame on north, such as it is. Suppose you hold the north hand:

 

AKxxx

AJxx

xxx

x

 

You open 1♠ and hear 3♠ limit raise.

Your hand is way better opposite a 4 card limit than a 3 card limit and you have room here to find out if partners honors mesh well.

Maybe the game is actually easier to bid if South shows a 4-card mixed raise with 3♣? Now the North hand knows it is worth more, and can make a 4♥ game try, over which South has a clear accept.

On the actual auction, I don't think South can do more, and North's pass is borderline.

[Apollo81]

My view of this auction must be different from everyone else's. I think North has about what he has shown with 2♥ and South should have bid 3♠, not 2♠.

 

I probably would have shown a mixed raise with South's cards if that was an option...and this is clearly a max for that.

[jdonn]

North if anyone, I don't see what south could have done differently since he has already bid aggressively. I think he is worth one more try, I would bid 2♥ on the same hand minus spade king since it's below our suit.

[Finch]

This is a very tough game to bid. The lack of any wasted diamond honours in either hand is very, very hard to identify in the auction. I would have thought that QJx Kxx Kxxx Qxx is a perfectly good 2C bid and game is pretty poor opposite the North hand.

 

In contract with a lot of posters I think South, if anyone, has to do something more. It's the 4th trump opposite that makes game so good (well, it's not great anyway, but it's OK). Given that South would have shown some signs of life with 4-card heart support over 2H, North must know that game will be pretty dreadful if South is 3325 or (worse) 3334, with any diamond honours in dummy likely badly placed.