Is This The Right Room For An Argument?

[Winstonm]

Playing 2/1 - does opener's reverse after a 2/1 response show extras? Make your case. Using terms like idiot, foolishness, harebrained, and imbecile is encouraged. :P

[BillHiggin]

No Fit finding is now the most important next step.

(idiot, foolishness, hairbrained, and imbecile included merely because I follow orders - has nothing to do with question - apply own opinion to answer).

[Winstonm]

No

(idiot, foolishness, hairbrained, and imbecile included merely because I follow orders - has nothing to do with question - apply own opinion to answer).

Utter foolishness. :P

 

Anyone should know that showing extras is by far the superior method as it allows responder to quickly determince combined assets and fits.

[pbleighton]

I find it easier to play that all bids show shape, and no extras, therefore 1M2x-2M always shows 6 cards. Where I play, this is by far the most common practice. Simplicity is a virtue, after all.

 

I understand that the "extras" approach (which may also apply to auctions such as 1S-2D-3D) is popular among experts (as well as expert wannabes :P ). A rebid of the major may then show a not so great 5 card suit. I'd be interested if one of these folks would list which auctions show extras in their preferred system.

 

Peter

[Winstonm]

I find it easier to play that all bids show shape, and no extras, therefore 1M2x-2M always shows 6 cards.  Where I play, this is by far the most common practice.  Simplicity is a virtue, after all.

 

I understand that the "extras" approach (which may also apply to auctions such as 1S-2D-3D) is popular among experts (as well as expert wannabes  :P ). A rebid of the major may then show a not so great 5 card suit.  I'd be interested if one of these folks would list which auctions show extras in their preferred system.

 

Peter

Of course it should show shape. It's lunacy to force opener to hold more values in an auction that is game forcing already. :D This way, rebids show the true length and you aren't stumbling around at the 3-level to show length.

[han]

Winston, you are an imbecile.

 

I play them as showing extras. The idea is that the more room your bid uses, the more descriptive it should be.

[Stephen Tu]

I play reverses as showing extras. Strength range is important when deciding whether to explore for minor suit slams or stay in 3nt. If you bid shape regardless of range, I am convinced without "old black magic" that you either miss good slams or overbid past your last making game too often.

 

Playing rebid major = 6+ necessarily makes other sequences less well defined. It makes more sense to make higher bids which take up more room more defined, not less defined. Over lower bids there is more room to unravel things.

[mikeh]

Only a hairbrained (isn't that supposed to be 'harebrained'?) idiot would reverse with no extra values. Of course, there are lots of imbeciles who bid foolishly.

 

Sensible wanna-be experts like me use the reverse to show about a King more than a minimum opening bid, so that responder can know what to do when holding an equivalent hand: the 'both sides a King extra' combination is very difficult to bid intelligently if you play like the 'show shape' lemming crowd. They end up in 3N, yukking it up when the 4-1 splits I always encounter doom my sensible slam to down 1.

[mike777]

WinstonM you are very smart and full of GRACE.

 

 

Endless debate bordering on a religion. :)

I prefer shape with responder assuming I have a minimum but I expect responder to have the much stonger hand than my opener very often.

 

My guess is BW standard is simply rebid your 5 card major with all minimum openers.

[Winstonm]

Only a hairbrained (isn't that supposed to be 'harebrained'?) idiot would reverse with no extra values. Of course, there are lots of imbeciles who bid foolishly.

 

Sensible wanna-be experts like me use the reverse to show about a King more than a minimum opening bid, so that responder can know what to do when holding an equivalent hand: the 'both sides a King extra' combination is very difficult to bid intelligently if you play like the 'show shape' lemming crowd. They end up in 3N, yukking it up when the 4-1 splits I always encounter doom my sensible slam to down 1.

What a moronic approach! :P Surely this is the reason for wanna-be status instead of title WC. :lol:

 

What about all those 6/2 minor suit slams that can only be found with a sensible rebid showing length??? How else can reponder value his Qx of partner suit to be golden??? Hmmmmmmm????????

 

I could offer to teach you bridge, but instead I think I'll just sell you the one located in Brooklyn!!!

 

(You can guage the high degree of offensiveness by the three exclamation points.)

 

:) ;) :P

[Winstonm]

WinstonM you are very smart and full of GRACE.

 

No, I'm not! :)

[Winstonm]

Winston, you are an imbecile.

 

Han, you miss the point of the post - you are supposed to say something with which I can DISagree. :)

[Winstonm]

I play reverses as showing extras.  Strength range is important when deciding whether to explore for minor suit slams or stay in 3nt.  If you bid shape regardless of range, I am convinced without "old black magic" that you either miss good slams or overbid past your last making game too often.

 

Playing rebid major =  6+ necessarily makes other sequences less well defined.  It makes more sense to make higher bids which take up more room more defined, not less defined.  Over lower bids there is more room to unravel things.

Obvious moronic parroting of previous rubbish. :)

 

When I rebid my suit, I have at LEAST 6 of them. And you...hmmmm....

 

:lol:

[whereagles]

You can play it in any way you want. I prefer showing extras because otherwise it gets too difficult to show them.

[skjaeran]

I've seen some auctions by pairs reversing etc on minimum hands.

After a series of cuebids they tend to run out of bids at the 5-level.

Neither knows if partner is minimum or stronger. Thus they have no idea whether they can take 10, 12 or 13 trick s(11 is possible too, of course, but never happens in these autions :) ).

 

Reverses after 2/1 should show extra strength, something like 15+, depending on suit lenght and quality.

[Guest Jlall]

I have agreed with a couple of partners that 1H-2m-2S does not show extras. This is so that we can find spades opposite a 4324 GF or so (where rebidding hearts will lead to us getting to spades), and we can bid out our shape pretty easily at the 3 level. It makes the auction much more economical but you don't know if partner has extras when he has spades so I'm not sure if it's a good tradeoff or not.

 

1D-2C is a special auction and I do different things with just about every partner there.

 

All of the 3 level reverses show extras to me.

[Winstonm]

You can play it in any way you want. I prefer showing extras because otherwise it gets too difficult to show them.

Chicken!!! Bawk, bawk, bawk. :)

[Winstonm]

I've seen some auctions by pairs reversing etc on minimum hands.

After a series of cuebids they tend to run out of bids at the 5-level.

Neither knows if partner is minimum or stronger. Thus they have no idea whether they can take 10, 12 or 13 trick s(11 is possible too, of course, but never happens in these autions :) ).

 

Reverses after 2/1 should show extra strength, something like 15+, depending on suit lenght and quality.

What a bunch of crap. ;)

 

As I've said before and will say again - by having a reverse show no extras, rebids can show length, meaning we will get to our 6/2 fits with plenty of room to find out slam interest or not. :lol:

[Winstonm]

I have agreed with a couple of partners that 1H-2m-2S does not show extras. This is so that we can find spades opposite a 4324 GF or so (where rebidding hearts will lead to us getting to spades), and we can bid out our shape pretty easily at the 3 level. It makes the auction much more economical but you don't know if partner has extras when he has spades so I'm not sure if it's a good tradeoff or not.

 

1D-2C is a special auction and I do different things with just about every partner there.

 

All of the 3 level reverses show extras to me.

Jane, you ignorant slut!* ;) :P :) :lol: :D :P

 

*(Stolen from Dan Aykroyd, Point/Counterpoint, SNL circa a hell of a long time ago.)

[dcvetkov]

I've seen some auctions by pairs reversing etc on minimum hands.

After a series of cuebids they tend to run out of bids at the 5-level.

Neither knows if partner is minimum or stronger. Thus they have no idea whether they can take 10, 12 or 13 trick s(11 is possible too, of course, but never happens in these autions :) ).

 

Reverses after 2/1 should show extra strength, something like 15+, depending on suit lenght and quality.

What a bunch of crap. :D

 

As I've said before and will say again - by having a reverse show no extras, rebids can show length, meaning we will get to our 6/2 fits with plenty of room to find out slam interest or not. :)

Reversing without full values will to more disasters and will outweigh the gains ( small, the biggest benefits I think its getting to 4-4 spade fit which may be missed) . Often partners will get to 5 level with no idea where they are going and whether they have enough values for slam, like other people said. And what do you do when you have a real reverse? Same bid, and we'll catch up later? Jump?

 

BTW, Mike Lawrence in his book and CD, not recommends, but demands reverses and 3 level bid to show full values for such bids.... In that regard, rebid of the opener's major does not promises 6, just says " I have no other convenient rebid at this time"'

Inconvenient? Maybe. but will lead to more consistent contracts.

[awm]

There are several benefits to the approach of reverses not showing extras that haven't been acknowledged here:

 

(1) Rebidding the major unambiguously shows six. This makes it easier to find 6-2 major fit games and slams, as well as diagnosing a 6-3 or 6-4 major fit more easily. It's pretty hard to unambiguously agree the major at the three level after 1M-2X-2M punt.

 

(2) With weakish 5-5 hands, you may never be able to bid the second suit if you start with a 2M rebid. For example 1♠-2♥ and opener holds 5-5 in the blacks. Rebidding 2♠ "because the hand isn't strong enough to reverse" could easily lead to 3♥ from partner and the clubs will never get mentioned. Now it's hard to even determine whether 3NT is playable (say opener has no diamond stop).

 

(3) You can always use a fourth suit bid as "do you have extras" or play serious/nonserious 3NT. There are other ways to look for extra strength. The early bids of the auction should be focused on finding the best strain rather than determining who has extras.

 

Of course, as a devoted player of the superior methods where 2/1 bids are not necessarily game forcing I have to play reverses show extras.

[pclayton]

Reverses in a 2/1 show extras. Not the values for a 1/1/2 reverse, but at least a King better than a minimum.

[mike777]

If you play sound openings, I believe playing a reverse after 2/1 means extras is very playable....In fact rebid of 2 of a major would very very often show 6 or excellent 5. That means....one major=2c=2d maybe 3 card minor..normal opener often.

 

xxxx....AKJxx...AQx...x

or

Qxxx...AKJxx...Axx...x

or

QJxx...AKxxx...Axx...x

[Fluffy]

It is good that people play it as showing just shape since it helps me find beginners wich I can proudly double, or just eject form the table. No body with half the brain winstomn has could play it as no extra strenght, bidding the same with 11 or 19 is so idiotic.

 

About those 6-2 things, every system has been developed because of a real concrete hand that failed, there you get yours. Sensible people use some gadgets to help here, but people who just wanna bid their suits at any price will not care about them.

[bid_em_up]

WinstonM you are very smart and full of GRACE.

 

No, I'm not! ;)

He got it 1/2 right, you definitely are full of something. ;)