Too tough?

[Winstonm]

I think getting to 6 is tougher than everyone is making it out to be. The ♦J is a huge card. Without that card, slam is anti%. How can we possibly know this?

 

 

This is a good point and the reason it takes a 3D call to get us there - however, I admit that like most I use this to show extras. This hand has challenged that thinking, though. The 3-level contiuation to show extras is simply a holdover from SAYC days, when it was necessay to create a force; now, though, the 2/1 has created the force so it is probably more intelligent to use the 3-level bid to show extra shape instead of extra stength. With a stronger hand 54xx, it would be sufficient to simply rebid the major as a waiting maneuver.

[jdonn]

I think getting to 6 is tougher than everyone is making it out to be. The ♦J is a huge card. Without that card, slam is anti%. How can we possibly know this?

 

 

This is a good point and the reason it takes a 3D call to get us there - however, I admit that like most I use this to show extras. This hand has challenged that thinking, though.

This hand IS extras! It is so much extra that anyone who denies that has a serious case of highcardpointitis.

 

But yes the point is opener must show diamonds to help responder evaluate. The JTx is part of what gets him to hopefully take an aggressive view at some point in the auction.

 

Skaeran, I actually have to agree with Mike on this one, not so much in 5 level danger but in maybe having no club control. How does responder know opener doesn't have AJT9xx x AKxx xx or something, since I presume he is bidding slam unless off 2 keycards. Even the 5 level is not safe there. But maybe I misunderstand your description and that hand wouldn't bid 4♠ over 3♥? Maybe a heart void as well, like AJTxxxx - AQxx xx. I like an auction that lets responder start showing his enthusiasm below the game level so that opener knows when it is safe to keep investigating.

[skjaeran]

Our auction would be:

1♠ - 2♥

3♦ - 3♥

4♠ - 4NT

6♣ - 6♠

 

2♥=weak 3c raise (3-7) or 2/1 w/♥

4♠=distributional, not too strong in hcp

6♣=2KC+void

6♠=7 on ♦-finesse - partner would not jump to 4♠ with ♦AKQxx

1)How can you bid 4nt with Qx of clubs and JTx of D and partner shows minimum hcp? 5S can be down.

2) Why is partner showing a club void, how does she know it is useful? Do you just show all voids over rkc?

1) Opener has made a move towards game vs a 3-7 hand with 3 card support - with minimum values I can't see him doing this with less distribution than this. I can't imagine a hand with partner with more than one club and no control after this bidding. Partner can't be missing a ♦ control - that's just impossible. What hand do you expect him to have where that's possible? The bidding tells you that ♦JTx is HUGE cards - they're fitting in partner's side suit.

 

2) Opener has got to show the ♣ void. That might easily be what's needed for a grand. Surely the void can be of no value, but we're heading for slam - showing the void is mandatory.

[zasanya]

1♠-2♥-2♠ (shows 6 cards)-3♠-4♣-4♥-5♣ OR 5♦and so on to slam?

[Fluffy]

I think getting to 6 is tougher than everyone is making it out to be. The ♦J is a huge card. Without that card, slam is anti%. How can we possibly know this?

I seem not to be part of everyone, is that good or bad? ;)

 

If partner rebids 2NT over 2♠ you will have a very good hint that he has a ♦ honnor.

[foo]

Can anyone construct a sensible sequence to 6♠ with this pair:

 

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ ATxxxxx ♥ x ♦ AQxxx ♣ [space] ♠ KQ ♥ AK9xxx ♦ JTx ♣ Qx

 

Our auction stalled out at 4♠: 1♠ - 2♥ (GF) - 2♠ - 3♥ - 3♠ - 4♠ - AP.

*sigh* bidding systems are not usually set up to satisfactorily address these kinds of distributional hands.

 

OTOH, Opener has a 4 loser Control Rich 7-5 in a GF auction. Bid your shape out!

Opener knows We obviously have at least 5 level safety.

 

So,

1S-2H;2S-3H;

4D Now Responder knows Opener is at least =6?4? and dislikes the idea of NT

...4S; "I' ve got 2 card S support and a minimum 2/1 GF for the auction so far"

5D "That's what you think. I'm 7?5? and I'm interested in Slam."

 

Now Responder thinks a bit.

"I have a 7 loser hand opposite what is at most a 5 loser hand. We are in a 9 card fit with what rates to be at least 3/4 of the top honors. At the least we have no trump losers on most breaks. If GOP has a H, my AK cover that loser. If GOP has a C, we rate to only lose a C. GOP's bidding suggests that they are not too worried about D's and I have excellent fillers for most suit combinations if they are needed.

I'm counting only 1 likely loser no matter what in 6S."

 

...6S. "If this goes down, we'll all be surprised."

OR (if you are more cautious and in the right partnership)

...5H; denying C and D controls.

and Opener will dutifully bid 6S on this board and 5S on the boards where such controls are needed.

 

Geez. Sometimes Bridge =is= a simple game...

[Guest Jlall]

I think most experts would interpret 1S-2H-2S-3H-4D as a cue for hearts because of various common meta agreements, though perhaps that is not the best treatment in this specific auction.

[foo]

I think most experts would interpret 1S-2H-2S-3H-4D as a cue for hearts because of various common meta agreements, though perhaps that is not the best treatment in this specific auction.

Most of those meta agreements are based on trumps being set. At least by implication.

 

1foo-2bar;2foo-3bar is an ugly auction where one can not just assume trumps have been set.

 

without trumps being set, all bids should be natural.

 

thus 1foo-2bar;2foo-3bar;baz has to be a real suit.

 

...but I'm a simple person ;-)

[jdonn]

Lol, nice to have you back foo.

 

I think it's clear something like 1♠ 2♥ 2♠ 3♥ 4♦ should be a cuebid for hearts. There are a number of reasons for this.

 

- Responder's suit should not be rebid lightly (see previous posts in this thread) so it will just about always be a playable trump suit.

 

- Logically, when both players have bid a major twice why are we looking for a new fit in a minor on the 4 level? Both players did after all have a chance to bid this minor a level lower at their second turns.

 

- If opener has a hand that wants to do bid diamonds now, he could much more economically have rebid 3♦ then bid 3♠, which is far more convenient as it allows responder to try 3NT, cheaply agree spades in a strong fashion (4♣), raise diamonds, or go back to hearts.

 

- In conjunction with the above point, if 4♦ were natural here then 3NT is out (even if you never intend to pass that, responder could have used it as an accurate description), there is no convenient way to agree diamonds strongly, and there is no way at all to agree spades strongly. The 3 extra bids of missing space are absolutely crucial.

 

- If opener can't cuebid for responder's suit, he has no strong way to raise it at all short of blackwood. This will hardly lead to convincing auctions!

[Guest Jlall]

Josh I agree with you about the meaning of 4m (obviously since I brought it up), but I do see a problem with 5053 and xxx clubs type of hands. Also with 5152 and xx clubs its normal to raise to 4H but it would be nice to bid your 5 card suit at some point. Just thinking out loud that maybe 4m natural makes some sense here even though I don't think many experts if any would play it that way.

[foo]

Gentlemen, all I can tell you is that after being burned enough times by forgetting how "assume" is spelled in the sequence 1foo-2bar;2foo-3bar;baz I stopped doing it.

 

A raise, a splinter, or 4N should be =required= to set trumps in this sequence.

 

YMMV, but there's a decent amount of statistical analysis and some impressive disasters at all levels of play to suggest that I'm not completely irrational with regards to this.

 

Now I'll go and put on my asbestos suit so that Josh can flame me for being a simpleton. ;-)

[jdonn]

Naw, actually it's the simple minded approach to bidding i like best :P