Unusual sequence

[kenrexford]

I was asked for a consult on a bidding problem, several phases. Finding the problem interesting, I thought I'd share it with everyone here.

 

Part #1 of the problem:

 

You hold, red-on-white, the following hand:

 

♠x ♥AJ10xx ♦xxx ♣Qxxx

 

The bidding is 1♥-2♦-?

 

What call do you make here? Assume that (1.) 3♦ shows 3+ fit, GF, (2.) 2NT shows 3+ fit, limit raise, (3.) 4♥ shows a "preemptive" 5-piece raise, (4.) Jump Shifts are fit-showing, except (5.) 4♦ would be a splinter.

 

Part #1(a.): Would you endorse, disagree slightly but tolerate, strongly disagree, or find insane a 4♥ call? Explain if you want.

 

Part #2: You are forced to bid 4♥ in answer to Part #1. After a pass, partner now comes alive with a 4♠ call. What is the meaning of 4♠? Does it say or imply anything about the diamond suit? What is the reason for a cuebid of 4♠ instead of, say, 5♦? What is the difference between an auction starting with 4♠ and an auction starting with 5♥ at this point?

 

Part #2(a.): What would you bid next? If you cooperate with whatever you view 4♠ as showing/asking, what would 5♣ show? What would 4NT, instead, show?

 

Part #2(b.): Assuming a bid of 4NT, what is 5♦ by Partner showing?

 

Bonus Question: What is the best convceivable hand (contextually or otherwise) for Responder to have when he jumps to 4♥?

[Apollo81]

1. 4♥. I don't understand any other bid. If our suit were spades then I could buy a raise to only 3♠.

2. Partner didn't use RKC so he has a void (somewhere), an unstopped suit, or only a slam invitational hand.

2a. In most of these cases my hand is *****. I bid 5♥. Any other call is ridiculous to me.

 

bonus. hmm x AJ10xx Qxx Kxxx maybe?

[kenrexford]

1. 4♥. I don't understand any other bid. If our suit were spades then I could buy a raise to only 3♠.

2. Partner didn't use RKC so he has a void (somewhere), an unstopped suit, or only a slam invitational hand.

2a. In most of these cases my hand is *****. I bid 5♥. Any other call is ridiculous to me.

 

bonus. hmm x AJ10xx Qxx Kxxx maybe?

Wow.

 

Not even in the same solar system as most in-person responses. However, this view was shared by a fairly strong-minded minority, almost word-for-word. I'm amazed to see this as the first response.

[pclayton]

I'm OK with 4♥, but I think I have a maximum for the call. To answer your bonus question, I don't think that I can have much of a better hand, but I'd allow a 6th trump.

 

4♠ is more than a cue; its a side suit. Pard has a very good hand; enough to have security at the 5 level, but doesn't know about my ♥A. He has a flaw in his hand that precludes blackwood.

 

After thinking about this for a few minutes, I'm a little stumped about what pard holds. I'm starting to think pard is either looking for a club card or trumps. Could he have:

 

AKQx

Qxxxx

void

AKxx?

 

To me; this is a 5♦ call. I think 5♦ should focus on trump.

 

What about:

 

AKQx

KQxxxx

A

xx?

 

I think this is what pard holds, so I will sign off in 5♥. Does he have absolute security at the 5 level? No, but 6 is possible opposite many types of hands, so 4♠ is a reasonable try.

 

Another question: What is a 5♦ call by me? Is it just the ace, or is it some sort of last train call?

[cherdano]

4♠ is a natural slam try, of course. Probably a strong 2-suiter that would be worth a 2♣ opening if opponents were never allowed to enter the auction. Maybe AQJxx KQxxxx - Ax?

 

Given we have such a big fit, the shortness in partner's suit is useful. I would bid 6♥.

[Apollo81]

1.  4♥.  I don't understand any other bid.  If our suit were spades then I could buy a raise to only 3♠.

2.  Partner didn't use RKC so he has a void (somewhere), an unstopped suit, or only a slam invitational hand.

2a. In most of these cases my hand is *****.  I bid 5♥.  Any other call is ridiculous to me.

 

bonus.  hmm x AJ10xx Qxx Kxxx  maybe?

Wow.

 

Not even in the same solar system as most in-person responses. However, this view was shared by a fairly strong-minded minority, almost word-for-word. I'm amazed to see this as the first response.

This hand just isn't that good. xxx in RHO's suit, 8-8.5 losers. I don't like bidding things at unfavorable that are too far off from making/down1.

[helene_t]

Agree with all what Apollo said.

[kenrexford]

No one has answered one lurking question from the prior discussion. What would 4NT be by Responder, after 4♠?

[Finch]

No one has answered one lurking question from the prior discussion. What would 4NT be by Responder, after 4♠?

You posted a question, then under two hours later you are complaining at lack of responses?

 

If you want instantaneous expert advice, don't ask an internet bulletin board.

 

Part 1(a) Endorse. Feels like a down-the-middle hand for the call, maybe slightly better than average.

 

Part 2 Partner has something nice in spades (at least the ace) and wants to hear about my minor suit cards.

 

Does it say or imply anything about the diamond suit? What is the reason for a cuebid of 4♠ instead of, say, 5D? What is the difference between an auction starting with 4♠ and an auction starting with 5♥ at this point?

 

Partner cued 4S because he was interested in my hand. 5D, because it bypasses both black suits, sounds like a general slam try with all the suits controlled - do I like my hand, or not. An immediate 5H traditionally asks for a diamond control.

 

2(a): 5C shows a club control. 4NT _ought_ to be 'rolling' (a good hand without a minor suit control i.e. a trump cue bid) which would be quite a good call here, but I have agreed with regular partners that while theoretically this is a good use for 4NT in major suit auctions where RKCB doesn't make sense (and we play it in minor suit auctions where we never play RKCB), it's too hard to work out which auctions those are, so I'm afraid 4NT is still RKCB.

 

I hate my minor suit cards and sign off.

 

2(:P see 2(a).

 

Bonus question:

You haven't told us the form of scoring, which does have an effect (-200 at pairs in 4H-2 is much more painful than it is at imps).

 

As for what the best red 4H bid looks like at imps, that depends at least partly on its spade length: 4H is more tempting than alternatives (such as a high card raise) with short spades. I also have the agreement that a fit bid doesn't show any more playing strength than a 4H bid, so 4H denies a decent suit to fit jump into.

 

So given you have short spades, perhaps

 

x

AJ10xx

xxx

Axxx

 

is a super-maximum

[Halo]

I'm with the mainstream. Partner has two club losers and I am signing off in five hearts.

 

If I was forced to invent a meaning for 4NT, first thought is trump cue but actually I would assume protecting club King. If partner followed with five diamonds, I would think he had concern about a trump loser - hand like the one given:

 

AKQx KQxxxx A xx

 

worth 4♠ hoping for something like ...Axxxx...Kx or equally useful.

[inquiry]

4♥ simply because no other bid will do.

 

4nt over 4S is NOT ASKING for aces. It could be (based upon agreement) either the most difficult cue-bid (in this case, spades), or better yet, trump cue-bid (I have an honor partner). If I was to bid 4NT on the way to 5♥ that is the only encouragement partner will get from me, and I only do that because I have better than average hearts.

[Double !]

Anyone for having the 4S bid as a roman asking bid in spades (CAB)? lol. I just heart someone say "what the H is a roman asking bid?" (Am I showing my age?) Maybe a crazy idea.

 

dhl

[Guest Jlall]

Heh, I agree with everything Frances said. 4N keycard doesn't make much sense here, but that's how I would play it. I'm sure "good hand without a minor suit control" is better.

 

I also agree with the interpretation of 4S. We cannot draw any great inferences from this bid. Partner has spades controlled and slam interest and wants to see if we can cooperate somehow. That's it.

 

BTW I really really agree with her thoughts on the 4H bid. Some will ask how you can make a 4H bid with such a strong hand, well when you have short spades and a big fit in a competitive auction the primary goal is not to be finding slams it's to shut the opponents out from THEIR big fit. This is a much bigger priority and the 4H bid should be made on a very wide range of hands. This may not win the post mortem after you miss a slam but it is winning bridge.

[awm]

There are a lot of bidding sequences in bridge.

 

It is usually the case that it's more important to be on the same page with partner than to have the best possible agreement for the meaning of your bids.

 

Because of this, most of us have fairly simple logic on how to interpret bids. I am sure that by enumerating all possible sequences and determining the best meaning in each, those of us with eidetic memories could improve upon our bidding acumen.

 

However, in real life we are better off to use our simple logic and stay on the same wavelength, rather than deciding on the fly what seems to us to be the "best" set of meanings and then hoping partner comes to the same decision independently.

 

So in this auction, 4NT is keycard. Is that the best meaning? Assuredly not. But rotating the meaning of 4NT with a suit agreed based on the relative hand strengths or who potentially holds shortage in a key suit seems too complicated to be worthwhile.

 

On the other hand, this is yet another win for playing turbo, where one could guarantee an odd number of keycards on the way to signing off in 5♥. :P

[drinbrasil]

I was asked for a consult on a bidding problem, several phases.  Finding the problem interesting, I thought I'd share it with everyone here.

 

Part #1 of the problem:

 

You hold, red-on-white, the following hand:

 

♠x ♥AJ10xx ♦xxx ♣Qxxx

 

The bidding is 1♥-2♦-?

 

What call do you make here?  Assume that (1.) 3♦ shows 3+ fit, GF, (2.) 2NT shows 3+ fit, limit raise, (3.) 4♥ shows a "preemptive" 5-piece raise, (4.) Jump Shifts are fit-showing, except (5.) 4♦ would be a splinter.

 

Part #1(a.): Would you endorse, disagree slightly but tolerate, strongly disagree, or find insane a 4♥ call?  Explain if you want.

 

Part #2: You are forced to bid 4♥ in answer to Part #1.  After a pass, partner now comes alive with a 4♠ call.  What is the meaning of 4♠?  Does it say or imply anything about the diamond suit?  What is the reason for a cuebid of 4♠ instead of, say, 5♦?  What is the difference between an auction starting with 4♠ and an auction starting with 5♥ at this point?

 

Part #2(a.):  What would you bid next?  If you cooperate with whatever you view 4♠ as showing/asking, what would 5♣ show?  What would 4NT, instead, show?

 

Part #2(b.): Assuming a bid of 4NT, what is 5♦ by Partner showing?

 

Bonus Question:  What is the best convceivable hand (contextually or otherwise) for Responder to have when he jumps to 4♥?

part1 4♥ is ok.

part2: 4♠ is cuebid, ask for cuebid in minors, ♣ is important, if only ♦cue was important, he could start with 5♣. 5♦ direct is general invite, i would accept with max of 4♥bid (this case is one). 5♥ would ask for ♦ control.

part2 a) rebid 4NT if is ♠cue, and 5♥ if not. 5♣shows ♣cue, not this case.

part2 :P you need assume 4NT is something to answer this question

 

Bonus Q: The max for 4♥ is the max of points you have agreed with your p, in my case is 7PH. this hand is already max.

[kenrexford]

4♥ simply because no other bid will do.

 

4nt over 4S is NOT ASKING for aces. It could be (based upon agreement) either the most difficult cue-bid (in this case, spades), or better yet, trump cue-bid (I have an honor partner). If I was to bid 4NT on the way to 5♥ that is the only encouragement partner will get from me, and I only do that because I have better than average hearts.

From the responses so far, this does seem to be quite a problematic auction.

 

I'm most interested, personally, in the choice between 4NT as a trump cue and 4NT as a spade cue. RKCB seems lazy; everyone knows that it cannot be RKCB and yet many will not bid 4NT because it apparently must be interpreted as RKCB despite this huge logic problem.

 

If 4NT is a trump cue, this has some benefit, of course. However, the spade control then is difficult to show. If 4NT is a spade cue, this has some benefit, but then the trump control is difficult to show.

 

Playing this out. If one bids 4NT to show a trump honor, Opener can then cue 5♣ if he needs a diamond control. Or, Opener could bid 5♦ is he needs a club control. Thus, Responder can show any top heart and a minor control.

 

If one bids 4NT to show a spade control, the same thing happens. So, in this scenario, Responder can show any two side controls. (After 5♣, Opener can bid 5♦ as Last Train in either auction.)

 

However, it seems that the responses so far as to the meaning of a "maximum" for a jump to 4♥ would hardly be a simple two controls. It seems to me that Responder needs three controls to be pushing this forward.

 

If this is the case, then it seems that Responder may need a way to essentially bid around his hole, instead of bidding around his shortness, in a manner of speaking. The most practical seems to be to assume that he has a high trump, such that he can bid around his side hole when he has the three-control holding. The practicalities of bidding, then, seems to justify, at least to me, 4NT as a cue of spades. I was expecting more than one apologetic suggestion of this analysis.

 

This, of course, begs the question of what a 5♦ response to 4♠ would be. If bypassing 4NT denied a spade control, and bypassing 5♣ denied a club control, then what two cards does Responder have, in addition to the heart control? For that matter, if 4NT had been a trump control, what does 5♦ show?

 

Here's where the whole thing comes together. If 4NT is a spade control (assumed heart contribution), then the one major three-control situation not covered is three outside controls, without a trump contribution. Hence, 5♦! (4NT=♠+♥+minor; 5♣=♣+♦+♥; 5♦=♠+♦+♣)

 

The same purity does not exist for a structure when 4NT is a trump cue. (4NT=♥+something; 5♣=no♥, but club and something; 5♦=no ♥, no ♣, ♦, plus something)