Bidding Problem

[bridgeboy]

Hi all,

 

This hand came up in a team game. The players are playing a 2/1 base system.

 

[hv=d=s&n=saktxxhxxdkxckqjx&s=sqxxhxdajxxxxcaxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

The bidding (uninterrrupted) went:

 

1D---1S

2D---3C

3S---4C (agreed as cuebid)

4D---4S

Pass

 

 

Clearly, it is desirable to be in slam. Who should have bidded differently?

 

Thanks in advance!

[the hog]

The 2D rebid rather than bidding 2S is beyond my understanding. After a 2S raise and a 3C bid by Nth, south has a massive hand with 2 Aces the Q of trumps and a s/t. 4H is not unreasonable. Mind you, I doubt it would go this way at a strong table. The opponents do have 10 hearts between them.

[jdonn]

I would certainly raise the spade bid, but I understand there are countries where people just don't do this and that it's just a stylistic difference.

 

In any case as the auction went, I think south can't possibly pass 4♠. The singleton heart and amazing controls are about as good as it gets there. I would bid 5♣ (obviously i must have some heart control as well to bid at all) and leave it to partner, who would certainly bid slam then. I think technically north's best bid at that point would be 5NT, since the diamond slam could be best opposite say Jxx x AQJxxx Axx. And south would certainly choose spades since his diamonds are so bad.

[helene_t]

If 4♥ by North would have been Last Train, he might have used that.

 

Intuitivele the South hand looks very nice but counting LTC, I must reach the conclusion that North was the one that should have known that the combined strength must be enough for slam.

 

Then again, I can understand that North would not bypass 4♠ without a heart control. And the fact that North does not have a heart control make the South hand nicer.

 

So the conclusion is that South should raise 4♠ to 6.

[Cascade]

South has shown a minimum and North has made a slam try opposite a minimum. South has controls in all of the side suits (including two aces) and the queen of trumps. Therefore I think South is worth another move.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

simple speaking, 4S showed the lack of an

heart control, opener is looking at one,

hence opener should move on.

 

Of course it is not that simple, because

opener is minimum (he showed that with 2D,

although he still could hold 15/16HCP depending on

your requirements) and unless you have a clear

understanding that 4C shows more than a "so lala"

cue bid, opener wont move over 4S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: If you play 2/1 you may have a problem

regarding the meaning of 3C, if NMF is in place,

3C shows an inv. hand with 5-5, ... and maybe

South was not 100% sure about the meaning of 3C.

[the hog]

"PS: If you play 2/1 you may have a problem

regarding the meaning of 3C, if NMF is in place,

3C shows an inv. hand with 5-5, ... and maybe

South was not 100% sure about the meaning of 3C."

 

What? Wth is this? 1D---1S 2D---3C is 100% game forcing in 2/1 and doesn't necessarily show a 5/5 at all, just a second suit of 4+.

[P_Marlowe]

"PS: If you play 2/1 you may have a problem

regarding the meaning of 3C, if NMF is in place,

3C shows an inv. hand with 5-5, ... and maybe

South was not 100% sure about the meaning of 3C."

 

What? Wth is this? 1D---1S 2D---3C is 100% game forcing in 2/1 and doesn't necessarily show a 5/5 at all, just a second suit of 4+.

opps, sry, ... you are right.

In Germany we use couer for hearts, which may

explain the error a little bit, although I did know

that 3C meant clubs not hearts, but

 

1D - 1S

2D - 2C

 

is not a legal auction.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

Since moving to Germany I have always tried to avoid this since I think it way too confusing and always write ♥ and not C or H...

 

I've had too many confusions with partners in chat and emails and no one knew what the other meant etc.

[P_Marlowe]

Since moving to Germany I have always tried to avoid this since I think it way too confusing and always write ♥ and not C or H...

 

I've had too many confusions with partners in chat and emails and no one knew what the other meant etc.

I usually use the english notation, but I read german posts

as well, and I get confused sometimes, ... not that anybody

will notice.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[whereagles]

South's pass to 4♠ is technically wrong. Absence of a heart cue means there's no heart wastage and therefore all of South's hcps are working. Action by him is needed, despite being the weaker hand.

[inquiry]

[hv=d=s&n=saktxxhxxdkxckqjx&s=sqxxhxdajxxxxcaxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1D - 1S

2S - 2N

3D - 4C

4D - 4N

5

 

 

[/hv]

 

Explaination of bidding

 

1D = well it is an opening hand

1S = what else

2S = three card support with ruffing value, raise directly.

2N = Inquiry,

3D = long diamonds, three card support

4C = slam try, spades are trumps, no heart control

4D = diamond cue-bid, must have heart control to show this

4N = RKCB, I could have bid 4H LAST TRAIN

5S = Two keycards plus spade queeen

6S = long diamonds should give us a play, but I am worried that heart control is Kx or that you have ACE of hearts and no ace of diamonds. It is not a sure thing.

 

I think actually a slam invite 4H bid by north would have been better than blast 4NT. On this hand, South would have accepted the slam try and used blackwood himself. Last train would avoid the problem of south having some ackward hands.

[Fluffy]

Bidding is fine. You never found the right singleton, south might bid a bit more since slam will almost always have chances.

 

On my methods North would cue 4♦ instead of 4♣ because you can't cue a King where partner might have a singleton. That can be enough for south to make the needed moves.

[Apollo81]

...as the auction went, I think south can't possibly pass 4♠. The singleton heart and amazing controls are about as good as it gets there. I would bid 5♣ (obviously i must have some heart control as well to bid at all) and leave it to partner, who would certainly bid slam then. I think technically north's best bid at that point would be 5NT, since the diamond slam could be best opposite say Jxx x AQJxxx Axx. And south would certainly choose spades since his diamonds are so bad.

agree

[skjaeran]

Two aces, a singleton, the trump Q AND a 3rd trump. I can't understand how I can pass 4♠ with this. Surely I'd have bid 4♥ last train with the north hand if that was a part of our methods, but still can't agree with passing 4♠.

[kenrexford]

Although Opener is a tad light for this call, a treatment that I recently learned from some great players may be of interest to some.

 

The idea is for a jump reverse by Opener to show a 6-3 hand, extra's, with three-card support for Responder's suit.

 

Thus, give South a bit more, like maybe the AQJxxx of diamonds, and he'd jump to 3♥, showing six diamonds, three spades, and extras.

[han]

Ken, do you recommend using 1C-1S-3D or 1C-1S-3H for that gadget? Do you think it is superior to invitational splinters? Do you have any way of showing that hand over 1D-1H?

 

As for the original question, I agree with everybody once again. I'd raise to 2S immediately, but not having done that I think that south needs to act over 4S.

[jdonn]

I'm not sure why everyone wants north to bid 4♥. He has already made a slam try, what is the point?

[whereagles]

I'm not sure why everyone wants north to bid 4♥. He has already made a slam try, what is the point?

Maybe because South is weakish (as compared to North) and is likely to be wanting to pass at his 1st opportunity? Practice shows this is a serious possibility!! :P

 

But you're right that, opposite a good South, North has done enough and can bid a plain 4♠ now.

[the hog]

I'm not sure why everyone wants north to bid 4♥. He has already made a slam try, what is the point?

Maybe because South is weakish (as compared to North) and is likely to be wanting to pass at his 1st opportunity? Practice shows this is a serious possibility!! :P

 

But you're right that, opposite a good South, North has done enough and can bid a plain 4♠ now.

Whereagles, I don't see how you can say South is weakish. he has a huge hand in support of S. Two bullets, a stiff and 3 card support to an honor. I would like to have a weakish hand like that is support of my suit every day of the week.

[whereagles]

Ron, I agree. The point is not all will evaluate it properly. It's easy to undervalue a weak hand and to overvalue a strong one.