1D:2C 2H how much?

[jtfanclub]

Ummm...what do you have 2NT over 1♦ promise then?

 

Thats a different auction altogether 1♦:2nt for me promises 10-12 and atleast both majors stopped.

Sure, but if you play SAYC as written, it shows 13-15. That means those 3=3=3=4 12 counts end up bidding 2♣. In fact, even with your defintion, it sounds like 3=3=3=4 12 counts with one of the majors unstopped bids 2♣.

 

You can see the problem, when you have a:

4=2=4=3 12 count, and he has a

3=3=3=4 12 count.

 

3♣ is a really bad place to end up.

[kenberg]

SAYC certainly says 1D-2N is 13-15. Moreover, it seems right. The 11-12 range is needed by the 2/1 folks. If 1D-2C is absolutely forcing to game, if your partner opens 1D, and if you have 11 points and your only suit is clubs, you have to just go home if you cannot bid 2NT here (not that 2N will always be a great choice either). Playing SAYC, with it's 13-15 point range, you bid 2C when you have clubs, but you cannot wait for five.

 

There is no great intrinsic advantage playing 1D-2N as invitational. Usually no harm is done but assuming that you then also play 1D-3N as a balanced 13-15, it will sometines leave opener uncertain of the best spot to play and no practical way to explore. At any rate, 13-15 is what SAYC says, at least at the acbl website. I know many folks who "play SAYC" play it as 11-12. My main objection to this deviation is that it defeats the SAYC purpose of providing a basic system that can be played pick-up without discussion.

[pbleighton]

My main objection to this deviation is that it defeats the SAYC purpose of providing a basic system that can be played pick-up without discussion.

 

Ken, I understand what you are saying, but what percentage of players who "play sayc" do you think really play it, or at least 98% of it?

 

I'd say under 20%, perhaps way under 20%.

 

"SAYC" has come to mean:

1. 5 card majors (but not necessarily having 13 hcp).

2. 15-17 NT

3. Stayman, major suit transfers, and Blackwood)

4. 2/1 forcing for one round (but not necessarily promising a rebid)

 

That's about it. Is your experience different?

 

Peter

[mike777]

One sequence not mentioned here is 1♦:2♣  3♣

 

I never see it discussed, I dont think its a great bid but I do use it with 3 card support and no other bid available.

 

Good, bad, terrible, does anyone use it?

Ummm...what do you have 2NT over 1♦ promise then?

 

If 2NT promises 10-12, that should work, I suppose, but if it promises 13-15 as Yellow Card seems to have standard you're going to be in a world of hurt sometimes.

 

I play 1♦-1♥-2♥ as 4 card support or 3 with a singleton (or other ruffing value). I play 1♦-2♣-3♣ as showing the same level of support. So I might have only 3 on rare occassions, but if I'm going to play in a 4-3 fit at the 3 level, there'd better be a good reason!

 

1d=2c(game force)

I would think if you are going to have a reverse show extra, then you must have 2d be any 5+ suit wide ranging rebid. That makes 2nt your default rebid with some 4243//4432, etc hands. that seems playable.

[neilkaz]

My main objection to this deviation is that it defeats the SAYC purpose of providing a basic system that can be played pick-up without discussion.

 

Ken, I understand what you are saying, but what percentage of players who "play sayc" do you think really play it, or at least 98% of it?

 

I'd say under 20%, perhaps way under 20%.

 

"SAYC" has come to mean:

1. 5 card majors (but not necessarily having 13 hcp).

2. 15-17 NT

3. Stayman, major suit transfers, and Blackwood)

4. 2/1 forcing for one round (but not necessarily promising a rebid)

 

That's about it. Is your experience different?

 

Peter

Peter...this is exactly what SAYC means to most players, including many of the advanced SAYC pickups I play with.

 

BB could really use a few more SAYC-type standard cards, but most pickup types wouldn't bother to learn one, and would deviate slightly from any of them no matter which one they felt was agreed.

 

.. neilkaz ..