rkc for ?

[jillybean]

Dealer: South Vul: EW Scoring: IMP ♠ Q985 ♥ AK5 ♦ Q7 ♣ QT92

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     1♣

 Pass  1♦    Pass  1♠

 Pass  2♥    Pass  2NT

 Pass  3♣    Pass  3NT

 Pass  4♦    Pass  4♥

 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♥

 Pass  7x  

 

 

Heres a hand where we ended up in a good contract despite my bidding.

This is my interpretation of the auction.

 

2♥ 4sf game force. My p could have 5♦/4♥, I dont know yet.

 

2nt balanced, min

 

3♣ forward going, could be 3card ♣ support ?

 

3nt nothing more to say

 

4♦ I don’t want to play in 3nt, I have 5+ ♦

 

4♥ cue or delayed support for ♥?

 

4nt rkc ♥'s

 

5♥ I have 2!

 

7x my partner was much smarter than me :(

 

 

What is wrong with the auction, which grand did we bid?

[cherdano]

I think 3♣ sets trumps.

 

The problem here is about setting trumps in "murky" 4th suit GF auctions. They become less murky if you have a lookt at Josh's post on his preferred agreements for FSF auctions, recommended reading.

[helene_t]

4♥ is not delayed support for hearts. North has not shown hearts.

 

3♣ establishes a club fit. I think it must be is a real fit. Not sure what to do if looking for the best minor suit fit. Maybe first 3♦ and then 4♣. Maybe 3♥ would be a repeated fsf (some play it that way over here but I don't think it's standard in SA).

 

If 4♦ is a natural bid rather than a cue for clubs, it would be nice to have six-aces Blackwood available. But that requires a special agreement, of course. Probably it's best to count the king of clubs as an ace here because it's the suit in which neither of you can have a singleton. Even if p thinks that diamonds are trump, I don't think it can do any harm to reply as if clubs are trump. With the given hand, it doesn't matter of course.

[jdonn]

I think 3♣ sets trumps.

 

The problem here is about setting trumps in "murky" 4th suit GF auctions. They become less murky if you have a lookt at Josh's post on his preferred agreements for FSF auctions, recommended reading.

Ha, my brainwashing is working.

 

Seriously it's ok not to agree with what I wrote, but the one part that I am adamant is correct is that responder's next bid after 4th suit forcing sets trumps. It may be possible at times to end in another suit anyway but that is an exception. It is both an easy and a logical rule to follow, and would end so many misunderstandings.

 

So 3♣ here shows club support clearly. Partner can't have some hand where he is stuck for a strain to play in since you have already bid notrump, he could always raise notrump in a pinch. On that basis, the later 4♦ bid is cuebidding in clubs, as is your 4♥ bid (Helene is right, you can't give 'delayed support' in a suit partner has never even shown.) After that 4NT should be keycard in CLUBS.

 

Actually I think you bid very well, except for being mistaken about which suit 4NT is keycard for. Other than style issues that might be different for some, your first 5 bids were impeccable.

[jillybean]

I dont know why 1♦/2♥ cant be 4sf or natural gf, I'll go and read the other thread :(

[helene_t]

I dont know why 1♦/2♥ cant be 4sf or natural gf, I'll go and read the other thread :(

The 2♥-bidder might have hearts. Or spades, for that matter. The point is that s/he didn't show hearts. fsf followed by 3♣ shows a strong hands with clubs, says nothing about hearts.

[jillybean]

I agree after the 3♣ bid (I missed that in this auction) Before that 1♦/2♥ is 4sf or could be ♦ and ♥'s correct?

[jdonn]

I agree after the 3♣ bid (I missed that in this auction)  Before that 1♦/2♥ is 4sf or could be ♦ and ♥'s correct?

The 2♥ bidder could have diamonds and hearts, but could also have diamonds and clubs, or diamonds and spades, or just diamonds. So even though diamonds and hearts is one possibility you shouldn't think of the 2♥ bid that way. It doesn't say anything about any suit, it just says "I have a game forcing hand". The fact that it's possible responder could have hearts is a coincidence when taken in conjunction with the fact that the 4th suit bid was in hearts.

[helene_t]

I agree after the 3♣ bid (I missed that in this auction) Before that 1♦/2♥ is 4sf or could be ♦ and ♥'s correct?

In this particular case I'd say no. South can hardly have a 4-card hearts after the 1♠ bid. So North needs 5 hearts to look for a hearts fit. In that case, s/he would have bid 1♥ in response to 1♣.

[kgr]

2♥ 4sf game force.  My p  could have 5♦/4♥, I dont know yet.

 

2nt  balanced, min

..I would rather think that 2NT after 4sf GF shows a not mimum hand?

[the hog]

I guess you bid 7C. This auction would have been a lot easier with a sensible jump to 4C over 1S. I know that some posters treat this as a splinter however - erroneously in my view.

BTW Kathryn, I much prefer a rebid of 1NT rather than 1S. Show the essential features of your hand - balanced and the requisite point count.

[jillybean]

Josh's post....

 

I like the following set of agreements with my 4SF auctions that I think make it very playable.

 

Allow opener to freely bid responder's major with two card support on the 2 level for his third bid. I always see people discussing things like what is the "default bid" on auctions like 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♣, and it drives me crazy because there shouldn't be one! Opener should just be able to bid 2♥ on a doubleton.

 

Always remember the overriding principle with extremely few exceptions: It is responder who sets trumps. There can be no confusion as long as you remember that. Ken gave the example of 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ that responder might bid 2♣ with a variety of intentions. I agree, but frankly it doesn't bother me as I think there should be no confusion. If opener bids 2♥ now, responder's bids of 2♠, 3♦, 3♥ all set trumps, 2♥ did not set trumps. Simple.

 

In conjunction with the above, I like to play that bidding then rebidding the 4th suit is still artificial (though it tends to show some length there, else you would have a clearer idea where you are going) whereas immediately jumping in the 4th suit is natural 5-5 game forcing. So 1♦ 1♥ 1♠

3♣ is 5-5 clubs and hearts, GF.

2♣ 2♥ 3♣ is still doubt about what strain to play, maybe 3433 with no club stopper.

 

The last thing I would say is on opener's 3rd bid, tend toward the cheapest reasonable bid when nothing seems good. Not only does this leave responder with the most room possible most often, but it means opener's higher bids are more descriptive (as they deny the ability to make lower bids). So on the 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♣ auction, as opener I would generally bid 2♦ with 4252 or 4153 even with a club stopper. The auction might continue 2♦ 2♥ 2NT, which it's easy to see is both lower and more descriptive than 2NT 3♥ 3NT.

 

I have other more complex and artificial suggestions that I believe help a lot, but I think the most gain won't come from a system overhaul (well maybe, since you use a 12-16 NT  :) ) but just from a clear understanding of the principles that will help make these auctions easier and more descriptive.

[jillybean]

BTW Kathryn, I much prefer a rebid of 1NT rather than 1S. Show the essential features of your hand - balanced and the requisite point count.

Hi Ron, I'd rather have 5/4 or better ♠'s for the 1♠ rebid but I'd like to find a ♠ fit first - why bid 1nt?

[jdonn]

Rebidding 1NT vs. 1♠ is just different styles. Neither is "wrong", but 1NT is definitely more popular among good players these days since it quickly limits your hand and shows the nature of your hand. If you are more comfortable with 1♠ then it tends to work out fine and there are some hands where it works out even better, so you should stick with it.

[the hog]

Kathryn, a lot of modern players believe that it is more important to show hand type and strength. Here you have a balanced hand in the 1NT rebid point range. Yes occasionally you will lose a S fit in a partscore hand, (never in a game going hand due to using checkback). However what you lose on the swings....when an opponent leads a S for you.

[jillybean]

And here's the full hand

 

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sathqjdakj62cak53&s=sq985hak5dq7cqt92]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     1♣

 Pass  1♦    Pass  1♠

 Pass  2♥    Pass  2NT

 Pass  3♣    Pass  3NT

 Pass  4♦    Pass  4♥

 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♥

 Pass  7♣    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

[cherdano]

Kathryn, a lot of modern players believe that it is more important to show hand type and strength. Here you have a balanced hand in the 1NT rebid point range. Yes occasionally you will lose a S fit in a partscore hand, (never in a game going hand due to using checkback). However what you lose on the swings....when an opponent leads a S for you.

Well, if Kathryn were to bid 1N here, she would definitely lose the 4-4 spade fit, unless she has made an agreement with partner before about bypassing 4 spades.

My point is, the relative merit between the different styles matters so little that it is hardly worth for a B/I trying to convert partner by partner to the "modern" style.

[the hog]

Kathryn, a lot of modern players believe that it is more important to show hand type and strength. Here you have a balanced hand in the 1NT rebid point range. Yes occasionally you will lose a S fit in a partscore hand, (never in a game going hand due to using checkback). However what you lose on the swings....when an opponent leads a S for you.

Well, if Kathryn were to bid 1N here, she would definitely lose the 4-4 spade fit, unless she has made an agreement with partner before about bypassing 4 spades.

My point is, the relative merit between the different styles matters so little that it is hardly worth for a B/I trying to convert partner by partner to the "modern" style.

Perhaps you would like to show me which 4-4 S fit Kathryn missed on the given hand? You did say "if she were to bid 1NT here." I did mention in my 2nd post that you can miss a S fit in a part score. Btw others would strongly disagree with your opinion that "the relative merit between the different styles matters little", and this would particularly be the case in auctions when responder gives preference.

Anyway Josh is right in that Kathryn should bid the way she feels comfortable.

[jillybean]

Come to think of it I do bypass 4 card ♠ but I think that tends to be on auctions 1m:1♥

I don't understand the benefit of not showing the 4 card suit after 1m:1m other than giving opps less information but would be happy to hear the rationale.

[the hog]

Lets say you open 1D on:

 

AQxx

xx

AQJxx

xx

 

after 1D 1H 1S partner will know you have a 5+-4 shape and can easily give preference to 2D on:

 

xxx

AJTxx

Kxx

xx

If on the other hand you rebid also rebid 1S on

AQxx

xx

AQJx

xxx

 

She will be inclined to rebid 1NT rather than give preference.

I deliberately chose a 1D opening because many play 2C as checkback. If you play both 2C and 2D as a checkback, then the preference argument disappears. The other arguments about limiting the hand and showing hand type still apply though. The advantages are also obvious in strong auctions where you want to know whether opener has a 5 carder, has a s/t somewhere etc etc.

Hope this helps Kathryn.

 

Amongst leading bridge theorists, Ron Klinger is a fervent advocate of showing shape. I have discussed this concept with him on numerous ocassions. Have a look at his book, "The Power of Shape".

[jdonn]

I don't disagree with what you said, and I bid 1NT on these hands too. But it's worth noting that 1♠ here made the auction easier since responder could afford to essentially insist upon clubs. But if opener had bid 1NT then responder might have to worry later that opener would be 4333 or 3433, and it would have been harder to figure out the correct minor to establish as trumps. I just try to make a point of staying open minded to the benefits of all approaches (I am not accusing you of failing to do that, just saying it's a great idea for everyone to do).

[the hog]

I don't disagree with what you said, and I bid 1NT on these hands too. But it's worth noting that 1♠ here made the auction easier since responder could afford to essentially insist upon clubs. But if opener had bid 1NT then responder might have to worry later that opener would be 4333 or 3433, and it would have been harder to figure out the correct minor to establish as trumps. I just try to make a point of staying open minded to the benefits of all approaches (I am not accusing you of failing to do that, just saying it's a great idea for everyone to do).

Fair comment. It could be worse still if opener opened 1C on a 4-3-3-3 shape and then rebid 1S. Some players do....

[mike777]

I do not understand..if you are opening on junk what is your point you are making?

 

If you want to open on junk...ok...but your point?

[helene_t]

I don't understand the benefit of not showing the 4 card suit after 1m:1m other than giving opps less information but would be happy to hear the rationale.

When the auctions starts

1♣-1♦

responder is unlikely to have a weak hand with a 4-card major. Think about it:

- Opener is unlikely to have a four-card diamonds because she would usually open 1♦ with 4-4 minors and maybe even with 4-5. Therefore, responder should not bid 1♦ to show a 4-card diamonds if she has something more interesting to say, like a 4-card in a major.

- If responder has a 5-card diamonds, she won't be able to tell if opener has 3-card support. If opener rebids 1NT she will know that opener has diamond tolerance (and if 1NT denies a 4-card major, opener is very likely to have 3-card support). She could rebid a 5-card diamonds, especially if she's very weak so that 1NT may be unplayable. But how often does that happen? If you have a diamonds fit, opps rate to have a major suit fit. They probably already entered the auction, otherwise they will.

 

Therefore, it has very little costs to agree that opener rebids 1NT with all balanced hands. The advantages, on the other hand, are obvious, as Ron pointed out.

 

When the auction starts

1m-1♥

it is less clear if opener should bypass spades, since 1♥ certainly does not deny a a weak hand with a four-card spades. And it's relevant to look for a spades fit because opps will probably not be able to outbid us. Personally, I prefer to bypass spades here, but I'm less rigorous about it. I will not normally bypass with a weak doubleton in the unbid minor. Some prefer never, or almost never, to bypass. Some would bypass with 4333 but not with a doubleton.