Second suit or cuebid?

[bid_better]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=skt9763ha5dak42c8]133|100|Scoring: IMP

Play 2/1

 S   W    N    E

1♠-(2♦)-3♦-pass-

?[/hv]

 

North's 3♦ shows limit raise of ♠ or better, now is South's hand worth a try for slam? If to try, what's the proper re-bid for south? 3♥?4♣? or4♦? For the partnership who play "serious 3NT "over major fit, is this conventional 3NT still applied here after partner's 3♦?

[cherdano]

Of course you can play whatever you like, but for me 3N is always natural in competitive auctions.

I would take 3♥ and 4♣ as natural (game) slam tries, so if I want to try with this hand (and I do), I have to bid 4♦.

[jdonn]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=skt9763ha5dak42c8]133|100|Scoring: IMP

Play 2/1

  S        W        N      E

1♠-(2♦)-3♦-pass

-?[/hv]

I'll try the questions in order.

North's 3♦ shows limit raise of ♠ or better, now is South's hand worth a try for slam?

Absolutely. Axxx Kxx xx xxxx is not even a limit raise. Not that I would reach slam opposite it anyway, but it only goes to show how likely slam is.

If to try, what's the proper re-bid for south? 3♥?4♣? or4♦?

4♦. 3♥ is natural and I think would cause partner to misevaluate. 4♣ would get partner too excited over the club king. I think bidding 4♦ and then signing off over a 4♥ bid unless partner can keep going is about the right level of enthusiasm. I do not agree that it denies club control.

For the partnership who play "serious 3NT "over major fit, is this conventional 3NT still applied here after partner's 3♦?

Not on auctions like this, I would take 3NT as an offer to play. The overcall may have changed the situation and make opener want to play 3NT with a major suit fit.

[Guest Jlall]

Donn you are really signing off if partner bids 4H??????? Wow. I think it's fair to just assume partner doesn't have xxx diamonds and bid accordingly, in which case you have a monster. I am pretty tempted to just bid keycard over 3D lol. I would bid 3H (which I think is definitely artificial, how else can you make a game try?) just to see what happens.

[jdonn]

Donn you are really signing off if partner bids 4H??????? Wow. I think it's fair to just assume partner doesn't have xxx diamonds and bid accordingly, in which case you have a monster. I am pretty tempted to just bid keycard over 3D lol. I would bid 3H (which I think is definitely artificial, how else can you make a game try?) just to see what happens.

Maybe I'm a wimp but how is 3♥ artificial! It's after a limit raise, you don't have a vague re-invite, what would it ask partner how many jacks he has? It probably would have gone 1♠ p 3♠ p ? if they didn't interfere.

[Guest Jlall]

Maybe I'm a wimp but how is 3♥ artificial! It's after a limit raise, you don't have a vague re-invite, what would it ask partner how many jacks he has? It probably would have gone 1♠ p 3♠ p ? if they didn't interfere.

A better analogy might be if you played 1S p 3D as a limit raise. I know several good pairs who play 3H here as a game try. I don't see why you wouldn't want to be able to invite.

[jdonn]

You could agree it but no way it's standard, you would just assume it here with a new partner?

[Guest Jlall]

You could agree it but no way it's standard, you would just assume it here with a new partner?

With a modern expert partner I would assume he would think if he bid 3S I could pass. As such it's a game try. It cannot be a specific game try given that I only have 1 bid between 3D and 3S. If he would think 3S was forcing I guess we'd have a problem since I am going to take inferences based on whether he bids 3S or 4S or 4x just based on that. If he thinks I have hearts I don't care much. I just want to see how good his hand is.

[jdonn]

You could agree it but no way it's standard, you would just assume it here with a new partner?

With a modern expert partner I would assume he would think if he bid 3S I could pass. As such it's a game try. It cannot be a specific game try given that I only have 1 bid between 3D and 3S. If he would think 3S was forcing I guess we'd have a problem since I am going to take inferences based on whether he bids 3S or 4S or 4x just based on that. If he thinks I have hearts I don't care much. I just want to see how good his hand is.

You lost me lol. With the logic that is.

 

 

So 1♠ 2♣ 3♣ p 3♦ p 3♥, 3♥ is an artificial game try since 3♠ can be passed? The bid below 3 of our major is always artificial now unless we are in a game force.

[Guest Jlall]

So 1♠ 2♣ 3♣ p 3♦ p 3♥, 3♥ is an artificial game try since 3♠ can be passed?

right!

[Fluffy]

I agree with Arend

[helene_t]

You can just ask keycards, or maybe even blast 6♠.

 

I think 3♥ is ok, though. Seems weired to me that 4♦ could be the only slam try available. And 3N is surely natural. With values in diamonds you could easily be afraid of a ruff.

 

Whatever you do, don't bid 4♣. That would make partner upgrade his ♣KJT. Unless 4♣ specifically shows a singleton. Which it probably doesn't, at least not with a ranodm pick-up.

[jdonn]

Just asking keycards seems hasty to me. For one thing partner might have just 3 spades, and he has only shown a limit raise. There is also no reason partner can't have three diamonds, which would be very bad. Bidding 4♦ here shows a good hand, we probably don't have slam if partner can't cooperate over that. Give him say

 

Qxx KQxx xxx KJx

 

And the 5 level is in serious jeopardy, in fact on a terrible day 4 could go down. Or we could have 2 keycards without the queen and you don't know if partner has Axx or Axxx of spades. I like involving partner in this decision.

[helene_t]

Partner might have three diamonds, but it's unlikely. LHO has 6 most of the times. Besides, I don't see how we can find out about a doubleton diamonds by p.

 

I'm more concerned about p's constructive raise being based mainly on a void diamonds. In that case, we could easily loose a heart trick. Ideally, we could find out if p has a heart control. If so, we're satisfied with four keycards. Otherwise, we need all five.

[Apollo81]

North's 3♦ shows limit raise of ♠ or better, now is South's hand worth a try for slam?

 

Definitely.

 

If to try, what's the proper re-bid for south? 3♥?4♣? or4♦?

 

First I'll comment on the Josh-Justin debate. I think that 3♥ in this auction is an artificial game try since the 3♦ bid can be anywhere from a 10-count 3-card limit raise to a real 4-card limit raise. That's actually a pretty wide range; it's a lot wider than if partner had bid 3♦ Bergen LR for example.

 

Second, I don't think the hand is good enough to blast keycard. I think that I should bid 3♥ and then try for slam one more time (4♦) if partner signs off in 3♠. If partner signs off again I'm done. I don't think I've bid the hand strongly enough if I bid 4♦ here and then sign off over 4♥.

 

For the partnership who play "serious 3NT "over major fit, is this conventional 3NT still applied here after partner's 3♦?

 

If undiscussed I would assume no, but it's a good idea to discuss when serious is on. WIth casual partners I play it is on only for known 9-card or better fits.

[jdonn]

This whole 3♥ thing still makes no sense to me. Without interference in normal 2/1 for example, the limit raise would be shown either 1♠ 3♠ or 1♠ 1NT 2x 3♠. In either case we would have no way to re-invite, we would just bid game if we think we are good enough. This only exists on auctions showing a single raise, like 1♠ p 2♠ 3♦ 3♥, because the range for a single raise is quite a bit wider than the range for a limit raise. Supposedly (in general terms) they are 6-9 and 10-12, but in practice and taking distribution into account its more like good 5-bad 10 and good 10-12, so like a 5 point range and a 2.5 point range. I just don't see the need for it on this auction or how it can be accurate. If you think you might have game you bid game, you don't worry about stopping on a dime based on vague information.

[cherdano]

Partner might have three diamonds, but it's unlikely. LHO has 6 most of the times. Besides, I don't see how we can find out about a doubleton diamonds by p.

 

I'm more concerned about p's constructive raise being based mainly on a void diamonds. In that case, we could easily loose a heart trick. Ideally, we could find out if p has a heart control. If so, we're satisfied with four keycards. Otherwise, we need all five.

If partner has 3 trumps and 2 diamonds, it is very likely that you can't ruff both diamond losers. I don't think this hand is as good as you think, unless partner has 4 trumps. Opposite a 4-card limit raise, I might agree with keycards.

[Apollo81]

This whole 3♥ thing still makes no sense to me. Without interference in normal 2/1 for example, the limit raise would be shown either 1♠ 3♠ or 1♠ 1NT 2x 3♠. In either case we would have no way to re-invite, we would just bid game if we think we are good enough.

My point was that the OP's auction is a lot wider ranging than these auctions; enough to warrant the existence of the game try.

 

If 3♦ showed for instance only a 4-card LR then I agree with you Josh.

[jdonn]

This whole 3♥ thing still makes no sense to me. Without interference in normal 2/1 for example, the limit raise would be shown either 1♠ 3♠ or 1♠ 1NT 2x 3♠. In either case we would have no way to re-invite, we would just bid game if we think we are good enough.

My point was that the OP's auction is a lot wider ranging than these auctions; enough to warrant the existence of the game try.

 

If 3♦ showed for instance only a 4-card LR then I agree with you Josh.

3 or 4 card support is already taken into account in the decision of whether or not to make a limit raise. You might think Kxx Axxx QJx xxx is not one but Kxxx Axx QJxx xx is one, for example, or no for QJx Kxxxx x Qxxx but yes for QJxx Kxxxx x Qxx. It's redundant information since responder already used it to value his hand.

 

Even if in a partnership 1♠ p 2♠ denies four trumps, they still generally play 3♦ 3♥ is an artificial game try.

[pclayton]

If 3♥ is available as an invite, then I think that it can effectively be used. Just because an auction like 1♠ - 1N - 2x - 3♠ doesn't have an invite, doesn't mean that other sequences can't.

 

The issue I see is a cue bid forced on responder with a good limit raise since Opener can have a wide variety of hands?

 

I am of the opinion that if Opener is interested in slam, that he shouldn't start with 3♥, and that 3♥ is specifically a game try.

[Flame]

Bidding avaliable suit below game as general invite in situations like 1M-3D* bergen or 1S-(2D)-2S-(3D) is standard intermidite bidding.

[Halo]

I don't think I can find out what I need to know, so it's just an RKCB blast for me -might as well be now as later.

[mike777]

It would seem very difficult to stop short of the five level. You have a 5 loser hand with great controls and partner will very often have an 8 loser hand or better(not 100%).

 

I guess the non rkc bidders are worried about an 8.5 ltc responder hand with 3433 shape or something close to that. I would just bid 2s with that hand type but I guess that is not standard here.

[Apollo81]

Bidding avaliable suit below game as general invite in situations like 1M-3D* bergen or 1S-(2D)-2S-(3D) is standard intermidite bidding.

Josh's point is that it doesn't make sense to split hairs after a certain point. 1♠-3♦ bergen shows a 4-card limit raise. 1♠-3♣ Bergen shows a 4-card constructive (slightly worse than limit) raise. Since responder has two options here when he chooses the limit raise he is shoiwng a very narrow range of hands. It just doesnt make sense to systemically have a invitation opposite something that is already a 2-point range or less.

[jdonn]

I guess that's essentially my point. It's a lot like why I disagree with a forcing pass in a lot of auctions where people seem to play it. It's just a guess transfer. When partner makes a limit raise and you have a close decision, it won't matter if partner's hand technically evaluates to 11.12 or 11.93, it will matter how well the hands fit, and there is no way to find that out by sending partner the message "I don't know what to do".

 

Even if 3♥ in the original problem should always be used as a game try (I have no idea why it couldn't also be made on a slam try) I'm still sure it should be a natural one, and opener should guess to bid game or not whenever he can't make that bid. At least that way when he DOES make it, responder will know how to evaluate his hand, and actually make a good decision.