How much do you need to pass?

[kgr]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=skqxhaqtxdxckjtxx]133|100|Scoring: MP

1D-(1H)-??[/hv]

Partner opens 1♦ (5 cards M, 4 card ♦, can be 4-4 minors) and RHO overcalls 1♥. Do you have enough defence to pass (partner will DBL most of the time) or do you need at least 5 card ♥?

[Guest Jlall]

Don't ever trap at the 1 level with 4 trumps, and almost never do it at the 2 level.

[pclayton]

Don't ever trap at the 1 level with 4 trumps, and almost never do it at the 2 level.

I don't mind trapping at the 2 level against 2 of a minor with 4 good trump. The risk / reward is more favorable than trapping versus 2 major.

[cherdano]

Don't ever trap at the 1 level with 4 trumps, and almost never do it at the 2 level.

I don't mind trapping at the 2 level against 2 of a minor with 4 good trump. The risk / reward is more favorable than trapping versus 2 major.

This is MP, so it hardly makes a difference.

Anyway, the risk of trapping isn't only that they might make it, it may also happen that it gets passed out (or that partner is forced to reopen on too many hands), or that the auction doesn't go P P X P and you can't show your hand anymore.

[Double !]

Not everyone would agree with me but,

I suggest that you concentrate on bidding your hand and work toward reaching the partnership's best contract rather than keep trying to lure old George (or Georgia) to his/ her doom. If you miss an opportunity, chances are that some of that loss might come back in terms of misdefense or a favorable lead, to say nothing of the fact that the opp's bidding might help you evaluate your holdings better and locate a key card or two in the bidding.

 

This is also one reason that I often hate redoubles just to show 9/10+ hcp. The opps usually find some escape and you've lost a round of bidding during which to bid your hand. The exception might be when you have a 3-card limit raise for partner's major, or some roughly 3-suited hand, short in partner's suit. Otherwise, I suggest that you bid as you might have bid had there not been an intervening takeout double. Don't let the opp's bidding disrupt your own bidding if possible.

 

dhl

[whereagles]

Bid a simple 2♣. If pard makes a strong move (e.g. 3♦, 2♠), you can think of slam. Otherwise just follow-up with 3NT and concentrate on making 11 tricks :)

[bid_em_up]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=skqxhaqtxdxckjtxx]133|100|Scoring: MP

1D-(1H)-??[/hv]

Partner opens 1♦ (5 cards M, 4 card ♦, can be 4-4 minors) and RHO overcalls 1♥. Do you have enough defence to pass (partner will DBL most of the time) or do you need at least 5 card ♥?

I think you have enough defense to be able to beat 1H, but it is not the hand to make a trap pass with.

 

You would like to have a 5th trump, making it reasonably certain that partner can/will reopen with a double. When holding 4 trumps, there are no assurances that he will be able to, even if your style is normally to reopen with X.

 

I think that either 6C or 6N are likely making. You would have to beat 1H by 5 tricks to outscore 6C and by 6 tricks to outscore 6N. Achieving this is unlikely when holding only 4 trumps, since RHO can easily have 6 or more. He will take at least 2 trump tricks on length alone.

 

Better to begin investigating your best spot immediately with this hand, imo.

[skjaeran]

I'd never consider trap passing here for two main reasons.

 

1. Partner might have more than two ♥'s and pass it out.

2. Even if partner reopen with a double, I'd seldom expect to beat 1♥ enough to outscore our normal contract.

 

So I'd just bid 2♣ and see how the bidding develops.

[Edmunte1]

4 trumps with AQ10x are not enough for a trap pass, and also ther could be a big risk that partner with 3-4 ♥ will pass. I completely agree with previous posts

[kgr]

Thanks all for the answers!! By now it's clear for me that I needed at least 5 hearts to pass :P ...but is 5 enough?

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=sjxxxhdakqxxcaxxx&s=skqxhaqtxdxckjtxx]133|200|Scoring: MP

1D-(1H)-P-(P)

DBL-All pass[/hv]

I don't remember the exact hands, but they were something like this.

Questions:

- If you can replace clubs by hearts.. How much more hearts do you need to pass iso bid?

- Is it ok to DBL with the North hand or do you need at least a singleton?

Thanks!

Koen

PS: Opps played 1HX-2, most other pairs played 3NT and one pair made 6C. A 0 (that's a big fat zero) for us :(

[mike777]

Thanks all for the answers!! By now it's clear for me that I needed at least 5 hearts to pass  :P ...but is 5 enough?

Dealer: North Vul: Both Scoring: MP

♠ Jxxx ♥ [space] ♦ AKQxx ♣ Axxx ♠ KQx ♥ AQTx ♦ x ♣ KJTxx

1D-(1H)-P-(P) DBL-All pass

I don't remember the exact hands, but they were something like this.

Questions:

- If you can replace clubs by hearts.. How much more hearts do you need to pass iso bid?

- Is it ok to DBL with the North hand or do you need at least a singleton?

Thanks!

Koen

PS: Opps played 1HX-2, most other pairs played 3NT and one pair made 6C. A 0 (that's a big fat zero) for us  :(

I have mentioned this before about Larry Cohen, he has a whole chapter on not making takeout x with a void. In particular he discusses not making an x in the reopening seat as in your example here.

 

Of course as others have said it well they would not make a trap pass with only 4 hearts. But give responder 5 or more hearts and opener still should not reopen with an x per Cohen/Bergen.

[the hog]

I'd never consider trap passing here for two main reasons.

 

1. Partner might have more than two ♥'s and pass it out.

2. Even if partner reopen with a double, I'd seldom expect to beat 1♥ enough to outscore our normal contract.

 

So I'd just bid 2♣ and see how the bidding develops.

I agree with this. What concerns me also is the comment that with one additional H some would consider a trap pass.

A pass at the one level looks more like Ax KQJTx and out. here you may well not be able to make much if the opps remove your SA in a possible NT contract by your side.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

you need -3 to compensate for game,

which means, your side has to make

3H, I would say it is a tough goal, because

you need to prevent cheap ruffs, and

you cant draw trumps, because that will

give away tricks.

=> Go for your own game, and you may have

a slam.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

trap passing with 4 cards at the 1 level can be a good idea when they are vulnerable adn yo are not.

[jdonn]

I would never trap pass with 4 at the one level even if I want to defend because it's too likely partner will have 3, or 2 with a bad hand and shape, and not reopen for me. With 5 I'm far more happy to trap pass in general. If the example hand had a club moved to hearts I'd pass all day, but if it had a spade moved to hearts I'd bid since my offensive potential is greater.

[Apollo81]

Don't ever trap at the 1 level with 4 trumps, and almost never do it at the 2 level.

I agree with the first half of this statement.