1435, do you act?

[cherdano]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=s5hakj9d865ca6542]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(1♠)-P-(1N)-?[/hv]

 

If you double, is this a minimum? If you pass, how much more do you need to act?

[Guest Jlall]

I would rather shoot myself than pass with this hand. This isn't a minimum for me. If you made the KJ of hearts the Q I would probably still X.

[pclayton]

You have to double with these hands.

[mikeh]

Ask yourself this question: if you were sitting behind the 1♠ bidder, would you pass 1♠? I doubt it: I certainly wouldn't, altho I'd rather pass than shoot myself... I have an aversion to bullets.... and if you'd double 1♠, you double 1N: in fact, that is what the double of 1N shows: it is a takeout double of 1♠.

[cherdano]

My thinking is similar to Justin's and Phil's. This is from Ulf Nilsson's blog: A trip to the graveyard, where he takes the view that this is too dangerous to act.

I suppose it is fair to say that this would not be a mainstream view among world class players...

[pclayton]

LOL; we are all going to die one day. For every 11-13 IMP disaster for -500 / -800, you are giving up hoards of 5 IMP swings where you lose the partial.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

X, and no this is not a min, but than

I make takeout doubels on fairly light hands

in case partner got his chance.

 

Remove an Ace and there are still days

I would make the takeout doubel, at least

green vs. red.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[bid_em_up]

I pass, as long as 1N is forcing.

 

They haven't found a fit yet. They may not have one. Let them struggle. If the auction, then goes 1S-1N-2D p p, I can x now.

[bid_em_up]

LOL; we are all going to die one day. For every 11-13 IMP disaster for -500 / -800, you are giving up hoards of 5 IMP swings where you lose the partial.

Assuming 1N is forcing, how am I losing the partial? Am I not getting another chance to bid? Aren't I better placed by waiting to see where they end before making a decision on whether to act or not?

 

They may subside in 2C or 2D or 2H. Do I really wish to "compete" if they end in 2C or 2H?

 

If RHO has a limit raise in spades, they will likely have a tough time in 3S or higher, plus if he has a limit raise, it probably isn't our hand.

 

I think you really need about a king more before you decide to act in the direct seat here.

[pclayton]

I pass, as long as 1N is forcing.

 

They haven't found a fit yet. They may not have one. Let them struggle. If the auction, then goes 1S-1N-2D p p, I can x now.

Are you sure they've found a fit with 2♦? Couldn't opener be 5=3=3=2? Couldn't responder be 1=5=3=4 for instance?

 

Doubling now is even more dangerous, since LHO doesn't know to bid over the double or not.

 

Its the misfit hands where we rate to get nailed, and if LHO has shape; we'll hear about it over the double. There's no comfort in passing and backing in; I think if you choose to pass this initially, you pass for the duration.

[bid_em_up]

I pass, as long as 1N is forcing.

 

They haven't found a fit yet.  They may not have one.  Let them struggle.  If the auction, then goes 1S-1N-2D p p, I can x now.

Are you sure they've found a fit with 2♦? Couldn't opener be 5=3=3=2? Couldn't responder be 1=5=3=4 for instance?

 

Doubling now is even more dangerous, since LHO doesn't know to bid over the double or not.

 

Its the misfit hands where we rate to get nailed, and if LHO has shape; we'll hear about it over the double. There's no comfort in passing and backing in; I think if you choose to pass this initially, you pass for the duration.

Umm. ok.

 

So if they are on a 3-3 fit, and you double now. You dont think partner can't leave the double in on his 6-x-4-x hand?

[jdonn]

Passing here is not even bridge. That is not too strong of a statement to make.

[iggygork]

I think this is the same hand (from Ulf Nilssen's blog):

 

http://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co...grave-yard.html

 

His commentary is somewhat different than the consensus here (I doubled, too).

[goobers]

Wait what? You have a takeout double of 1♠... make it! If 1N is forcing and responder just happens to have his upper range, AND we don't have safety anywhere, then oh well, next board.

[cherdano]

I think this is the same hand (from Ulf Nilssen's blog):

 

http://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co...grave-yard.html

 

His commentary is somewhat different than the consensus here (I doubled, too).

Yes that's why I posted it (see above), I was extremely surprised by his view. Personally, I would be quite surprised if a single of the top 20 players in the world would pass this.

[Apollo81]

Double is obvious; I think this is a min considering the conditions.

[pclayton]

I pass, as long as 1N is forcing.

 

They haven't found a fit yet.  They may not have one.  Let them struggle.  If the auction, then goes 1S-1N-2D p p, I can x now.

Are you sure they've found a fit with 2♦? Couldn't opener be 5=3=3=2? Couldn't responder be 1=5=3=4 for instance?

 

Doubling now is even more dangerous, since LHO doesn't know to bid over the double or not.

 

Its the misfit hands where we rate to get nailed, and if LHO has shape; we'll hear about it over the double. There's no comfort in passing and backing in; I think if you choose to pass this initially, you pass for the duration.

Umm. ok.

 

So if they are on a 3-3 fit, and you double now. You dont think partner can't leave the double in on his 6-x-4-x hand?

Whatever.

 

This is a very generic example I gave, and its not really the point of this discussion.

 

I really don't expect pard to whack off 2♦ with any 4 diamonds. I haven't promised them at all; and if he held 4♦'s, I would expect him to play me for a 3=4=1=5, which makes a lot sense for a reopening x than a 1=4=3=5.

[SoTired]

So you pass... and the bidding continues 2S p p and doubling now is somehow safer? OR opener rebids 2C p p p. And they make 2C on their 4-3 fit with because of spade ruffs in dummy, while you can make 2D/2H.

 

Come-on. Haven't we learned yet: BID, do not try to "back-in" to auctions. You just give the opps more chances to define their hands and take away your bidding space.

 

You must double NOW because:

1) If you wait until you are balancing, partner will not believe you are this strong (12 prime HCP + singleton in their suit = very nice... I agree with Justin). You might miss a game, a good partial, or even a good penalty dbl.

2) If you wait, opps may find their game and you will miss a good sac. 1S p 1N p 2S p 3S p 4S p p p and partner has xxx [Qxxxxx] xx xx

3)ummm... drat... i thot i had more reasons...

[whereagles]

Double 1st round. It is much, much more dangerous to dbl later so abstain in that question :lol:

[skjaeran]

I guess the differing views here are based upon differing bidding methods.

 

In Europe many play 1♠-1NT as NF, and effectively denies a fit. So unless opener has a very long suit, we rate to have a misfit.

 

I gave the hand to several players. My partner meant pass was absolutely automatic. Another expert would pass, but didn't find it automatic. A teammate would double, but didn't find it clearcut. Personally I think this is close, but would tend to pass over a NF 1NT.

[the hog]

X for takeout - automatic with this hand.

[cherdano]

I guess the differing views here are based upon differing bidding methods.

 

In Europe many play 1♠-1NT as NF, and effectively denies a fit. So unless opener has a very long suit, we rate to have a misfit.

I didn't clarify methods, as Ulf didn't either, but I doubt this is enough to explain the difference. I don't think US players automatically assume 2/1, they play against SAYC often enough, even a forcing 1NT might deny a fit for some, and the higher upper limit of the forcing NT also makes it slightly more likely that you go for a number.

I agree double is slightly more attractive opposite a 2/1-style 1NT than a SAYC-style 1N, but I think the difference is small.

[jdonn]

1: Playing 1♠ p 1NT as non forcing doesn't mean it denies a fit. It means it effectively denies a SPADE fit. Big difference, as there can easily be a fit for them in diamonds or even one of the other suits here.

 

2: Not having a fit is not the same as having a misfit. A hand with a few 7 card fits is not a misfit. Misfit would mean a partnership has long suits in either hand opposite short suits in the other. Playing in a 7 card fit at the two level with something like half the deck is far from a disaster. 2/1 players make a good living doing just that.

 

3: Even if partner doesn't have a fit with us, he can often pass the double to good effect since the spades are offside for the opponents. Or maybe double the opponents when opener goes somewhere.

 

4: Important point that our longest suit is clubs. On the bad days that partner is some 4333 mess he will go to 2♣.

 

I haven't seen anything that convinces me pass has the slightest bit of sanity to it. Doubling isn't risk free, just as opening a strong notrump isn't risk free. When you have a hand worth showing that is easy to show, show it!

[mcphee]

Interesting posts from many players. I like to bid and often get in with many weaker hands.

 

Regardless of what 1NT shows, F or NF partner holds S most days, probally 4. Those who elect to dble with the hand I have this question to ask, What is the upside? Are we really getting a chance to play game is my first thought? I also failed to note any notations from players that they may go minus 800, isn't that possible?

 

I consider myself quite aggressive, but color me chicken here, I think the downside is too great. I would not be pleased to come back to partners with minus 800 on this hand. Even given the light initial action players come up with today, I think it is possible to face a possible healthy minus with this hand, I am not willing to risk that.

 

I would not make a big complaint if someone bid,

[Halo]

I'm passing and not backing in. I do come from a Bridge culture where 1NT is non-forcing <3 spades - so the likelihood of a misfit is already high.