Your judgement

[cnszsun]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sxhqxdxxxck1098763]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(3D)-ps-(ps)-dbl

(ps)-?[/hv]

 

Will you bid 4♣ or 5♣?

[whereagles]

4♣, followed by 5♣ if pard takes it out into a major.

[Apollo81]

5♣

[inquiry]

At imps, I am not going to languish in 4♣ with this hand. I will bid 5♣ and hope for the best. EXCEPTION playing with an aggressive junior, I will bid only 4♣ because they will never pass when I bid 4 or 5 ♣... so with them, bidding 4♣ is a transfer to 5♣ and bidding 5♣ is a transfer to 6♣. :)

[Free]

5♣

[skjaeran]

5♣ at IMP's. Hope it has some play.

[Finch]

5C. Closer to bidding 6C than 4C. (Just give partner Axxxx AJxx x Axx and think where you want to play)

[Winstonm]

This pass-out seat balancing double does not guarantee as much hand as an immediate double - I would expect a balance on AQJx, KJ9x, x, QJx or something similar at the low end.

 

LTC tells me partner needs a 5-loser hand to produce 11 tricks, but I cannot find a way to invite with this hand.

 

Only because I am vulnerable at imps I bite the bullet and bid 5C. (BTW, would cue and pull over 4S be weaker or would it simply show a 4/6, heart/club hand? After cue, would 4S over 4H show a 4/6 spade/club hand?)

[Finch]

(BTW, would cue and pull over 4S be weaker or would it simply show a 4/6, heart/club hand? After cue, would 4S over 4H show a 4/6 spade/club hand?)

For me, cue and pull simply shows a 2-suiter. Doesn't have to be 4/6, could be 5-5.

[P_Marlowe]

4C.

 

Partner may have streched, which means

I may well hear X, if I go to high.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

4♣ for 3 reasons

 

- It is so important to me that my partners know they can double in these spots with the right shape in case I want to pass, so I go out of my way not to hang them.

- Partner will also often raise this when we have game.

- I am light enough that partner could well have a hand where he was going to bid again so I don't want to get in his way.

[pbleighton]

5C. When in doubt bid game.

 

Peter

[pclayton]

4 only ♣'s. This hand has a few red flags:

 

1. xxx in RHO's suit, and a lack of a raise by LHO.

 

2. All those missing spades. I'd bet pard has 5.

 

Aside from 5♣ being an overbid by about a King, it tends to create a problem for pard.

[mike777]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sxhqxdxxxck1098763]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(3D)-ps-(ps)-dbl

(ps)-?[/hv]

 

Will you bid 4♣ or 5♣?

5C

 

Good problem. How light do you want partner to protect at the 3 level?

 

AKxx..AKxx...x.....xxxx gives you some play for game.

or

Axxx...AKxx...x.....xxxx?

 

For sake of discussion do we want her to protect with 9 hcp at the two and more at the 3 level?

[000002]

i study this quetion half month about 2years ago,and conclude the conclusion 5winner tricks is the basic frame of referrence in T/O-DBL's hand.

then ,assume decider has n winner tricks ,(n-1) is bidding level to decide.

 

in this case,we hold 6♣ winner and ♥ q,(6-1)=5 is synoptical eduction.

 

 

regards 000002

[cherdano]

For sake of discussion do we want her to protect with 9 hcp at the two and more at the 3 level?

Easy question. No I don't want partner to protect me with a 9 count over a weak two.

[the hog]

5C. I know this is an overbid as pd is doubling in the pass out seat, but for me 4C and pulling 4M to 5C would be a slam try. Also it is Imps.

[cherdano]

5C. I know this is an overbid as pd is doubling in the pass out seat, but for me 4C and pulling 4M to 5C would be a slam try. Also it is Imps.

Are you playing 4♣ as forcing?

[mike777]

For sake of discussion do we want her to protect with 9 hcp at the two and more at the 3 level?

Easy question. No I don't want partner to protect me with a 9 count over a weak two.

interesting, I would not think a 9 hcp hand in balance seat over a weak two with shortness would be an easy pass/decision.

 

Perhaps it should be, but I think that is just one more example hand of a tough decision for nonexperts.

[the hog]

5C. I know this is an overbid as pd is doubling in the pass out seat, but for me 4C and pulling 4M to 5C would be a slam try. Also it is Imps.

Are you playing 4♣ as forcing?

Whoah, thanks. I have misread this a bit. Yes, we play 4m focring over 1 and 2 level openings and a X. This is a 3 level opening, so no, 4m is not forcing. Disregard my earlier comment about a slam try. Its too early in the morning for me here. Anyway, I would still bid 5 as it is imps.

[aliyah]

In this case I will simply pass as sometimes the impulsive bidding habbits lead to game bids by opponents and eventually doubled by your partner. In most of the cases i have experienced that freakish distributed hands make. So for me best is to pass.

[Edmunte1]

4♣ for me. An important thing for a partnership is to define a minim/maximum on certain actions. Let's suppose that a 11 hcp with singleton diamond or a 13 hcp with doubleton in diamonds are minimums for double. We will consider that a king over this minimum is an average double (and partener should be aware of that). Now let's consider some typical average hands for partner:

 

a) ♠AKxx ♥AKxx ♦x ♣xxxx - 4♣ is the limit

:) ♠AQxx ♥Axxxx ♦x ♣Axx - 5♣

c) ♠KQxx ♥KQxxx ♦x ♣AQx - 4♣

 

d)AKJx AKxx xx Qxx - 4♣

e)Axxx AKxx xx Axx -5♣

f)KQxx AKxx xx AQx -4♣

g)Axxx Kxxx Ax AQx - 5♣

 

Some remarks:

- partener should have ♠A or not wasted points in spades

- partner should have A or Q in trumps and at least 3 cards

-♥Q is often an unimportant card (if partener has only the king, the finesse works)

- partner can easily be in a GOSH double with such a long suit in our hand

- the win/loss report doesn't favour bidding the game. Suppose that 5♣ has 25% chance of success (versus a minimum/average double), then:

- win: 0.25 x 10 IMP(600-150) =2.5

- loss: 0.75 x 6 IMP(130+100) =4.5 ( I didn't take in consideration that sometimes you'll get doubled and sometimes you'll go down in 4♣ also, so the loss could be 400, 330, 100)

- sometimes you have to pay the preempts. I think is more frequent the case when a preempt pushes you into wrong contract or too high, than when you miss a game.

- I don't feel any regrets any regrets when partner will put down a perfect Axxx Ajxx x Axxx. That's bridge, the matter is to win more frequent , not to win THIS board.

[Codo]

4 ♣ agreeing with edmunte.

 

But of course this does very much depend on your overall style.

So, what do you bid with 5521? With 5512?

Do you double with 13+ HCPs and 4423? With 9 and 4414?

Will you bid on with the slightest excuse after a noise from pd?

 

But the main point is: Pd was in the pass out seat. He knows, that we have to be less aggressive then after a direct double. And he has high hopes, that we will produce some tricks. So he may bid game anyway with a fairly good hand. Not yet with Axxxx, AJxx, x, Axx but okay, I have missed better games before.

[inquiry]

4♣ for me. An important thing for a partnership is to define a minim/maximum on certain actions. Let's suppose that a 11 hcp with singleton diamond or a 13 hcp with doubleton in diamonds are minimums for double. We will consider that a king over this minimum is an average double (and partener should be aware of that). Now let's consider some typical average hands for partner:

 

a) ♠AKxx ♥AKxx ♦x ♣xxxx - 4♣ is the limit

:) ♠AQxx ♥Axxxx ♦x ♣Axx - 5♣

c) ♠KQxx ♥KQxxx ♦x ♣AQx - 4♣

 

d)AKJx AKxx xx Qxx - 4♣

e)Axxx AKxx xx Axx -5♣

f)KQxx AKxx xx AQx -4♣

g)Axxx Kxxx Ax AQx - 5♣

Not that I think edumte1's hands are representative of the typical distribution of hands one would run across for the double, but being vul at imps, lets see how his hands stack up with a 4♣ bid.....

 

a) ♠AKxx ♥AKxx ♦x ♣xxxx - 4♣ is the limit

 

And you wil play 4♣

 

:ph34r: ♠AQxx ♥Axxxx ♦x ♣Axx - 5♣

 

Abnd you will play 4♣, missing game

 

c) ♠KQxx ♥KQxxx ♦x ♣AQx - 4♣

 

And you will play 4♣

 

d)AKJx AKxx xx Qxx - 4♣

 

Actually, 4♣ has slight chance to go down, but you will play 4♣

 

e)Axxx AKxx xx Axx -5♣

 

You will play 4♣

 

f)KQxx AKxx xx AQx -4♣

 

You will play 4♣

 

g)Axxx Kxxx Ax AQx - 5♣

 

You will play 4♣

 

So lets see. Game made on 3 of these 7, or 43% of the time. You bid it VUL at imps, never. I am sure someone knows the precise odds for when you should bid a vulnerable game at imps, but lets just round it off and say it is somewhere around 38%. Even if it was 40%, the strategy of bidding only 4♣ on this distrubution of hands is clearly wrong by the examples given.

 

And there are reasonable examples where if you bid 4♣ you will play there and miss a nice 6♣ contract, which we don't even factor in because no such reopeners hand was shown.

 

Now, when I answered originally, I said, "At imps, I am not going to languish in 4♣ with this hand. I will bid 5♣ and hope for the best." This answer was based upon the problem proposed. The hand was at IMPs and we were VULnerable. The hope for the best implied that on a lot of hands, I would be going down. But clearly the odds of making are sufficient to justify under these conditions a bid of 5♣. At matchpoints, or at IMPS not vul, there is a lot more reason to condsider a bid 4♣, but at IMPs vul? The math of the situtation says bid on!!!! Edmunte1 proposed bidding game has only a 25% chance to make, I suggest it has around a 40% to make, and bidding 5 maybe the only way to get to six on other hands. And if partner has a GOSH hand (good one suited hand), he should have bid it not doubled at this level.

[Rossoneri]

i study this quetion half month about 2years ago,and conclude the conclusion 5winner tricks is the basic frame of referrence in T/O-DBL's hand.

then ,assume decider has n winner tricks ,(n-1) is bidding level to decide.

 

in this case,we hold 6♣ winner and ♥ q,(6-1)=5 is synoptical eduction.

 

 

regards 000002

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