Invitational Jump Shift or stronger?

[Badmonster]

Playing 2/1 with a three level jump to a minor showing an invitational hand and a six card suit, is this 10 pointer too good for an invitational bid? Is it good enough for 2d?[hv=s=sxhaxxxdaqtxxxxcx]133|100|[/hv]

[cherdano]

You forgot the 7th diamond.

[Badmonster]

You're right. I fixed it.

[mr1303]

2D for me. This hand is too good for an IJS. I like these to be pure, showing something like AQJxxxx and out. Having an outside ace makes it too strong, and having 4 good hearts is also a big no-no, since we could easily have 4H on.

[whereagles]

If you don't GF on this hand you might as well not leave home B)

[Winstonm]

If your partner has a black hand you might not make anything, so to say this is an automatic game force is dubious.

 

In my opinion, the problem lies in your methods - the direct jump to 3D is too room consuming and won't uncover a 4/4 heart fit, yet the hand is not up to the standards of a 2/1 game force.

 

The solution is to play a minor suit rebid after a 2/1 as non-forcing if the auction indicates a misfit is likely (if pard rebids 2N, then 3 of the minor is forcing.) This is the method suggested by Mike Lawrence, and this hand is one of the reasons.

 

By bidding 2D, you allow partner to continue with 2H, which finds the fit. If partner continues with 2S, you can rebid a non-forcing 3D allowing partner to pass with a misfit or bid on with some kind of fit.

 

The disadvantage to this method is the inability to rebid good 1-suited hands as forcing - that is the trade off.

[ArcLight]

I bid 3♦, an invitational jump shift showing 9-11 and 6-7 ♦ which is what I have.

 

The problem with a 2/1 game force is game is unlikely unless pard has a really good hand or a well fitting hand.

 

Pard will have around 2♦. If he has 5 Spades, then there are 7 and they may be split badly, meaning the suit wont be easy to set up.

Maybe pard has 6 ♠, it will still be an uphill struggle.

 

What about hearts? If pard has 5-6♠, 2♦, that leaves room for 6 cards.

Pard may be 5=3=2=3.

 

NT would probably be down.

 

Only if you get lucky and pard has 4 hearts or some diamonds will game make.

 

Bid 3♦ and pard can carry on with the right hand.

The 2/1 will get to too many bad games.

 

 

If you have an agreement like Winston suggests

1M - 2m - 2NT - 3m as non forcing, then a 2/1 can work out as you will discover the 4-4 Heart fit.

 

BUT what if this is the auction

1S - 2D

2S - ? 2S in Mike Lawrences system does not show extra spade length, it just denies the ability to bid NT or show something else.

What does 3D mean? Is it forcing, or can it be passed also?

In Mike Lawrences system I believe it shows a strong self sustaining Diamond suit.

 

Because of the risk of opener not bididng 2NT, I think the Invitational Jump Shift is better.

[Winstonm]

If you have an agreement like Winston suggests

1M - 2m - 2NT - 3m as non forcing, then a 2/1 can work out as you will discover the 4-4 Heart fit.

 

 

This is not the agreement I suggest: 1M-2m-2N-3m is 100% forcing because a known 6/2 fit is available.

 

It is only non-forcing when the potential exists for a misfit, as in 1S-2D-2H-3D.

 

Basically, the rebid is about 95% forcing but with the option of stopping with a misfit.

[ArcLight]

Winston,

I may be misunderstanding, but I think in the Mike Lawrence system:

1S - 2D,

2NT - 3D is forcing to game or 4 Diamonds.

 

 

1S - 2D,

2H - 3D This is NOT passable. Its forcing to game or 4 Diamonds as well.

[Winstonm]

Winston,

I may be misunderstanding, but I think in the Mike Lawrence system:

1S - 2D,

2NT - 3D is passable.

 

1S - 2D,

2H - 3D  I dont think is passable, I think its forcing to game (or 4 Diamonds)

I believe you have it backwards. Mike even talks about the logical reasons that make 3-of-the-same-minor after 2N forcing - due to the frequency of making 3N on 22-24 HCP because of the long, good minor suit and a known 8 or 9-card fit. (This is also why in this treatment you must rebid 2M with a five-card suit and a singleton in responder's minor and not 2N. The 2N rebid must show at least 2-card support. Which goes further into explaing that the 2N bid should show stoppers in the unbids, as well, so responder with a balanced invitational minor hand can simply raise 2N to 3N. Which then explains why 3m after 2N is forcing, as that would show an invitational hand unsuited for NT or a strong minor hand - either way it is forcing to at least 4 of the minor.)

 

This is logically the best approach, as well. After 2N, a strong minor hand can simply rebid the minor because it is 100% forcing and because the known fit allows the slam try suit to be set early.

 

The extension of this logic is that it is only when opener holds 0-1 cards in support of the minor and a minimum hand that you really want to be able to escape into 3 of the minor - which means a potential non-fit auction becomes encouraging but non-forcing. The only time you would pass is with minimum values and a non-fit.

 

(Granted, as with most everything Lawrence writes he shows alternative methods and is somewhat dodgy as to which he suggests. He did write about the choice of using 2m-3m as always 100% forcing in any auction, and the repercussions on subsequent auctions of adopting that method.)

[rbforster]

My initial inclination was not to force to game. I also don't like side 4 card majors getting shut out by the jump - I think 3m there should show a hand primarily interested in playing in its minor or 3N.

 

Why not bid 1NT forcing? If partner has 4+ hearts, you'll hear about them. If you don't like what you hear (partner rebids 2♣ or 2♠ most likely), you can always continue with 3♦ which should be invitational with long diamonds.

[cherdano]

Why not bid 1NT forcing? If partner has 4+ hearts, you'll hear about them. If you don't like what you hear (partner rebids 2♣ or 2♠ most likely), you can always continue with 3♦ which should be invitational with long diamonds.

No, if you play invitational jump shifts, then the sequence 1S 1N 2S 3D shows a hand like x xx KQJxxxx xxx.

[pclayton]

This hand is suitable for a IJS. I'm not worried about underbidding; I'm worried about losing the 4-4 heart fit.

 

But 2♦ rates to get us too high across from a minimum. If pard has a non-minimum, we'll hear about it over 3♦.

[whereagles]

If your partner has a black hand you might not make anything, so to say this is an automatic game force is dubious.

Pard can have anything from a misfitting 11 to a huge 20-count double fit. If you're gonna assume the worse and start underbidding, I doubt you'll manage to convince pard you actually have a good hand. This assuming he doesn't outright pass an invitational 3♦ on a mundane

 

Axxxx

Kxx

xx

KQx

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

it depends what style of 2/1 you play,

but I would say 3D is an underbid,

you miss the hearts, and partner will

pass with hands, when 5D is cold.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe