Prebalance Auctions...

[inquiry]

We know that auctions like

 

1H-P-2H- ???

 

The 4th seat can "pre-balance" with a lighter than normal hand (the so call OBAR situation). There are other auctions where I believe pre-balance should be standard treatments. What auctions do you play or wish you played as pre=balance auctions?

[cherdano]

Hmm, are you thinking of auctions like "1m P 1H P 2H ?" ?

I think acting in this auction should be reserved to unbalanced hands that substantial strength in opener's minor, otherwise the hand could have acted immediately.

[inquiry]

Yes, of course, that would be an example that COULD be played as a pre-balance auction.

 

So, so far, we have

 

(1H)-P-(2H)- AA

 

(1m)-P-(1H)-P

(2H)-BB

 

to this can add others. For example, how about this one?

 

(1D)-1H-(DBL)-P

(1N)-CC

 

Where dbl is modern style and denies spades?

 

I think we all agree that AA is a common pre-balance auction, some of us might BB would be useful pre-balanced auction. How many of us might think CC is pre-balance and allows overcaller to bid again with distributional weak hand based on the fact that 1NT is usally siignoff on this auction.

[jdonn]

I don't think there is a common prebalance auction. Of course you can make the agreement, but it is still far from being standard. I know you are a fan of these auctions but I don't like it one bit, it makes you more likely to be stolen from, not less likely, since you have to pay off when you have real values and underbid in response lest partner be 'prebalancing' with very little. It's one thing to just stretch a little when you feel partner might not have the shape to balance, but this seems to me like removing all sane requirements for bidding.

 

At least I understand the logic behind the bids when the opponents are in a fit, but your CC example seems totally ridiculous. The opponents haven't even got a fit most of the time, you have no safety of any kind jumping back in without the values to back it up. Your contention that 1NT is 'usually a signoff' (it's actually never a signoff, but you obviously mean that you believe it tends to end the auction) is both not particularly true and not particularly relevent to me. There is no reason responder can't be bidding again, and even if he isn't going to this is not a safe balancing auction.

[inquiry]

Yes, I know pre-balance, even the simple 1H-P-2H-AA auction is not standard treatment, that is, most players do not play OBAR.

 

I meant "standard prebalance" on the other auction I am trying to see if there are auctions people who might believe in the concept of prebalance would prebalance. I suggested CC for two reasons, 1) this auction if the DBL is truely limited to negative double strength then the opponents HCP are roughly equal, (opp tend to have slighly more than half the deck). and 2) both you and your partner will know that you have about half the deck or slightly less than half the deck. The stronger the hand you have the less your partner will have and vise versa. It that is true, then an action by you should show more shape, because come on, the FREE negative double and the signoffish 1NT bid suggest their side has aroung 21 points plus or minus two points. I think it is fairly (in fact, highly) unlikely you will have a monster hand here.

 

So on that auction you have a number of bidding options (in addition to pass). Clearly, since the stronger you are, the weaker your parnter will be having a strong hand based upon hcp will hardly provide you protection if you bid again. But distribution will. Say you are 6-4 or 6-5 you should have a chance to bid again, or if you have a strongish six card suit or a fair seven card suit, you should not be forced to pass just to keep from giving your partner the impression you have a lot of HCP.

 

So, assuming your shape/quality of suits are adequate, and if you believe in "pre-balance", I think this would in fact be a place where you might find a reason to bid again on some low HCP counts. HEre you have double, you have 2♣, you have 2♦, and of course 2♥. What should 2♦ show and how about dbl? Could 2♦ show a huge hand? Should it show diamonds? How about 2♦ showing some useful holding like 6♥ and 4♠s? Is 2♣ showing clubs? (I think so). And even if you play this as a pre-balance, that doesn't mean you should bid on every crappy six card suited hand or 11 hcp hand with five hearts that comes along. After all, you already showed values for overcall and longish suit. A prebalance here should have a chance to land you on your feet with some level of safety. I am thinking decent second suit and six in first suit, or source of tricks six card/seven card primary suit.

 

Anyway, these are the type of condition I think one might consider, if that auction is not satisfactory, how about this one...

 

1D-(1H)-1NT-(2H)

DD?

 

Is this a pre-balance auction? IS double for penalty? What should 2NT be? How about 3♣ bid? So you got all kinds of options as we all know (2NT can be five or six things all by itself), and you may or may not have specific agreements, but if you do, no doubt they will start with after they have bid and raised and despite your partners 1NT free bid, if this is a pre-balance situation. If it is a pre-balance situation when 1D bidder has shape, then that takes all the pressure of the 1NT bidder to reopen with many balanced hands (especially minimum ones).

 

Anyway, we will never agree on all of these--in fact most people will just turn up their noise at the general concept. What I am wondering is what auctions MIGHT someone who has a natural affinity towards playing pre-balancing bids consider as a potential pre-balancing auction.

[asc]

What about: P___P___1mM___?. We have to act! Possible the last chance. So AK is OK for me to act with TO double. My partnre's counting is against 8 looser hand.

A litle bit extrem for somebody, but don't forget they use to open very light nowadays, so sometimes they can miss a game, and we can find good lead,defence, part score (even game). Anyway it's not always easy to double us for profit on low level.

[awm]

(1) It's okay to take an aggressive pre-balancing auction provided that the opponents have found a fit and I have shortness (0-2 cards) in their agreed suit. This means I would double or overcall aggressively in auctions AA and BB (if short in hearts).

 

(2) In auctions where the opponents have shown a lot of values, it's okay to bid with hands containing a lot of offensive strength. So for example in auction CC, I would feel free to bid if I had some 5-5 with points in my suits. This bid shows extra offensive values but not necessarily extra defense; in fact with extra defense I would probably be doubling 1NT. On the other hand, I would not consider bidding with some 5-4 shape and a minimum overcall just because "1NT will often pass out;" opponents have not shown a fit and I am happy to defend 1NT when neither side has a fit. Partner is still there in any case.

 

(3) In auction DD, partner's 1NT call discourages competition by indicating points in the opponents suit. A double here will often be converted, and there's no strong reason to think we have a fit somewhere. I wouldn't bid here without extras, although again extras in the form of offensive values are possible (i.e. I would bid on xx x KQJTx KQJTx). I think 2NT should be minors (probably 6-4, with 3♣ showing 5-5); I would normally double with hands wanting to make an invitational 2NT raise, or with most hands with convertible defensive values.

 

(4) I haven't found that drastically changing methods against opponents who open light is really a winning strategy. If anything we should change towards methods where our calls show more values and not less, since the likelihood of our side having a game on power is slightly more. However, even with an opening range of something like 8-15, much of the time opponents will simply have a normal opening hand (the most frequent holding in this range is something like 11 hcp, unlike standard opening range where opener is very likely to be minimum for 12-21).

[inquiry]

Well, I had hoped for more potential auctions, but to keep this thread going, let me address auction ending with position DD. Here several have suggested not bidding without "extras", there is no doubt we will bid with sufficient extras. And we will pass with most hands lacking extras, but what hands might you bid without extras and what would partner expect you to have when you bid again with weak hands.

 

Ok, so I did the following test. First, I put no restriction on the double of 1H, second, I did put some pressure on the 1D opener. I forced him to have no more than 14 hcp so that the expected balanced hand would not fall into the typical 1NT openring range.

 

I searched a bbo database for this auction. I found in the database tested, 1598 such auctions that began like this with a 1NT rebid. Opener held on average 12.84 hcp +/-0.2. Responder held 9.34 +/- 0.05. This meant they had 23.18 on average on this auction. So i underestimated the hcp they would hold by about 1 pt. So, on the long run you will not have "extras" too often here, and when you do, your partner will have less. Is that not a reasonable assumption? If so, bidding on seems to need shape/tricks more than points. Just the situation where prebalance is needed.

[cherdano]

Well, I had hoped for more potential auctions, but to keep this thread going, let me address auction ending with position DD. Here several have suggested not bidding without "extras", there is no doubt we will bid with sufficient extras. And we will pass with most hands lacking extras, but what hands might you bid without extras and what would partner expect you to have when you bid again with weak hands.

 

Ok, so I did the following test. First, I put no restriction on the double of 1H, second, I did put some pressure on the 1D opener. I forced him to have no more than 14 hcp so that the expected balanced hand would not fall into the typical 1NT openring range.

 

I searched a bbo database for this auction. I found in the database tested, 1598 such auctions that began like this with a 1NT rebid. Opener held on average 12.84 hcp +/-0.2. Responder held 9.34 +/- 0.05. This meant they had 23.18 on average on this auction. So i underestimated the hcp they would hold by about 1 pt. So, on the long run you will not have "extras" too often here, and when you do, your partner will have less. Is that not a reasonable assumption? If so, bidding on seems to need shape/tricks more than points. Just the situation where prebalance is needed.

I really fail understand what you are trying to show with this hcp study, or what you are trying to say at all.

Anyway, the point about pre-balancing has little to do with points, it is more about total tricks, and partner's 1N bid has just dramatically reduced the likely number of total tricks.

[jdonn]

I searched a bbo database for this auction. I found in the database tested, 1598 such auctions that began like this with a 1NT rebid. Opener held on average 12.84 hcp +/-0.2. Responder held 9.34 +/- 0.05. This meant they had 23.18 on average on this auction. So i underestimated the hcp they would hold by about 1 pt. So, on the long run you will not have "extras" too often here, and when you do, your partner will have less. Is that not a reasonable assumption? If so, bidding on seems to need shape/tricks more than points. Just the situation where prebalance is needed.

No, the situation where prebalance is needed (if you are someone who thinks it is) is an auction in which the passout player would often want to balance, but that player's partner knows he won't have the right shape for it so he "prebalances" for him. That has nothing to do with this auction. You seem to think that the fact we are likely to be weak means we should define (say) double to show something which includes weak hands. No, it simply means we shouldn't be doubling much.

 

Come on Ben, I know you are way too smart for this. You found evidence of an auction where your side is likely to be even weaker than you had expected, and used this to conclude that you should gear the methods to get your side back into the auction more frequently. That conclusion simply does not follow.

[inquiry]

Come on Ben, I know you are way too smart for this. You found evidence of an auction where your side is likely to be even weaker than you had expected, and used this to conclude that you should gear the methods to get your side back into the auction more frequently. That conclusion simply does not follow.

Well, smartness really has little to do with it one way or the other. I am not suggesting that one should enter the auction more frequently, per se. I am suggesting you have an agreement/understanding that when overcaller takes an action over 1NT he is already bidding both his and his partners hcp. And that he is doing so because he has either extra shape or extra trick taking value in the form of a source of tricks. And that, for the most part, his bid is an effort to FIGHT for the part-score rather than a constructive effort to try to bid higher.

 

Here are a group of hands.. assume the auction is:

 

(1♦) -1♥-(DBL)-Pass

(1N) - DD

 

(where, neg dbl denies 4♠, and opponents play strong 1NT opening bids)

 

What which ones might you bid something other than pass, and if you bid, what would it be? I would pass some of these hands that at the table most people holding them bid. And I would bid something quite different on many of the hands where people choose to rebid 2♥. Maybe I am crazy, and if not, I must just think a lot different from the people who held these hand in the virtual world.

 

1 - ♠A2 ♥AQJTx ♦QJ4 ♣KT2

2 - ♠54 ♥AKJ98 ♦QJ4 ♣KQ9

3 - ♠KJ5 ♥AQ8654 ♦A6 ♣Q9

4 - ♠Q4 ♥KQT54 ♦A3 ♣A952

5 - ♠T97 ♥AKJ53 ♦K9 ♣A53

6 - ♠AT6 ♥AJ953 ♦65 ♣AQ4

7 - ♠KJ ♥AKJT96 ♦3 ♣K853

8 - ♠KT6 ♥QJ765 ♦A9 ♣KQT

9 - ♠Q875 ♥KQJT76 ♦void ♣AK5

10 - ♠AT86 ♥AJ9864 ♦Q43 ♣void

11 - ♠T965 ♥AT8764 ♦void ♣AQ7

12 - ♠AKT3 ♥KQJ843 ♦void ♣843

13 - ♠T6 ♥KQJ862 ♦8 ♣KJ87

14 - ♠KQ84 ♥KQ9843 ♦9 ♣86

15- ♠KQJT ♥QJT542 ♦K ♣J5

16 - ♠KJ85 ♥KT9874 ♦5 ♣97

17 - ♠AQJ4 ♥AQ8765 ♦87 ♣7

18 - ♠KQ87 ♥JT8732 ♦K ♣A3

19 - ♠AK94 ♥A98542 ♦J8 ♣2

 

Any of them look like something you would bid on?

[inquiry]

18 or 19 hands must be too many to get people to respond too. But this is a group of real world hands where the auction went just as shown in the last post. I left off the ones where overcaller had modest hand with 5332 distributions.

 

Here is my thoughts on this bidding. First, forget how many hcp you have. The more you have the less partner will have. Second, cue-bid 2♦ is not diamonds, it is not game try it is 4♠ and 6♥ (good hearts). Two clubs is clubs and SIX hearts. Double is takeout, short diamonds. Generally 3♠, 4♣, adn 5/6 ♥. And of course 2♥ is just a great heart suit.

 

Lets see how we might bid these hands using my "rules".

(1♦) -1♥-(DBL)-Pass

(1N) - DD

 

(where, neg dbl denies 4♠, and opponents play strong 1NT opening bids)

 

With these hands, I pass

 

1 - ♠A2 ♥AQJTx ♦QJ4 ♣KT2

2 - ♠54 ♥AKJ98 ♦QJ4 ♣KQ9

4 - ♠Q4 ♥KQT54 ♦A3 ♣A952

5 - ♠T97 ♥AKJ53 ♦K9 ♣A53

6 - ♠AT6 ♥AJ953 ♦65 ♣AQ4

8 - ♠KT6 ♥QJ765 ♦A9 ♣KQT

 

Bidding on one with all those points cost 11.95 imps. HAving a great hand but poor distribution or average hands and poor distribution is no protection

Bidding on two leads to down two doubled.

Hand 4 could bid 2C but with five hearts and crap in clubs, pass is best. Note if you pass, should partner have six in a black suit, he is likely to balance if it goes all pass because you almost surely will have something. but even if not, staying out here is best.

Bidding again on 5/6/8 were disasters

 

 

With these hands I double

3 - ♠KJ5 ♥AQ8654 ♦A6 ♣Q9

11 - ♠T965 ♥AT8764 ♦void ♣AQ7

 

 

On three I will double at MP and pull 2♣ to 2♥. This will show six hearts and three strong spades (with 64 i would have bid 2♦ instead of double)

11 is a little scary, but i double

 

With this one, I would bid 3C to show 6H and 4+Clubs

7 - ♠KJ ♥AKJT96 ♦3 ♣K853

13 - ♠T6 ♥KQJ862 ♦8 ♣KJ87

 

On 7 i might bid 2H instead of 3C

 

 

On these hands I rebid 2♦ showing 6♥ 4♠

9 - ♠Q875 ♥KQJT76 ♦void ♣AK5

10 - ♠AT86 ♥AJ9864 ♦Q43 ♣void

12 - ♠AKT3 ♥KQJ843 ♦void ♣843

14 - ♠KQ84 ♥KQ9843 ♦9 ♣86

15- ♠KQJT ♥QJT542 ♦K ♣J5

16 - ♠KJ85 ♥KT9874 ♦5 ♣97

17 - ♠AQJ4 ♥AQ8765 ♦87 ♣7

18 - ♠KQ87 ♥JT8732 ♦K ♣A3

19 - ♠AK94 ♥A98542 ♦J8 ♣2

 

18 and 19 are a little frigthening. I might pass either of them especially vul at imps. At MP, i bid on them however.

 

The "pre-balance" part of the deal here is partner is not to get excited whatever he holds.

[cherdano]

For me, double in this auction would just show a maximum 1♥ overcall, with a moderately balanced hand. I.e. I would double with hand one (of course any other bid except pass is silly). I would expect partner to pass the double most of the time. I would take 2♦ as a good overcall with very short diamonds, s.th. like 4603 or 4504 or 3514 etc.

Anyway, this is a non-fit auction (unless responders is going to make a delayed raise, in which case we get another chance), and it will often be right to let them play 1N.

 

Nevertheless, assuming your agreements, many of your pre-balances look reasonable to me, except on those hands where you bid a lot compared to what you have, e.g. 7 and 13. I think jumping to 3♣ with an unlimited responder and both sides having shown their shape (read, will take doubles as penalty) with that many losers is crazy, similar for the double on 11, or on 3 (this hand will play horribly if partner is weak).

[jdonn]

Incidentally, there are two more things not to forget.

 

1: You have already bid, and partner failed to raise you with the values you are assuming in his hand.

 

2: The stronger you are, the more your sides combined likely assets even if both opponents are limited. Would you say your side will average more combined strength if you have 18 or 8? If your side's range is like 15-21, in the first case it's 18-21, in the second it's more like 8-19 (partner didn't act before).

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

I am curious how OBAR bids work when the other pair 'does not' promise standard type values when they bid?

 

Meckwell open 10+HCP and 9+ with shape. They also tend to open in 3rd seat with 8+.

 

Many of the posters here state that their opening bids are 10-11+.

 

In America some(many?) top players respond to an opening bid on 4+HCP.

 

Moscito uses a 9-14HCP range opening.

 

I have played an assortment of systems that opened 8/9+ hands(Big Club types)

My Acol bidding used a 9+HCP range.

 

My current style to to often respond to my 'limited' openings with 0+HCP. I alert that partner might not have standard values(0+ is what we play) to respond to one of my 'limited'(Precision type) range openings.

 

With the number of weak jump shifts, weak jump raises and other shape showing bids common to todays game, how does your OBAR partner decide what to bid?

 

Like Meckwell, I also play a 1M-4M raise that goes from a standard weak hand up to a weak NT type holding. Meckwell found a +800 recently when the other pair decided to compete at the five level.

 

Regards,

Robert

[inquiry]

I don't adjust the concept of OBAR to take into account the opponents light opening bids or light responses. For one reason, I am not always (usually?) familiar with their style anyway. For another, even though the can and will open light, often they will actually have their bids.

 

I have not studied the consequences of OBAR versus pairs who open and respond on "dirt". I suspect you will underbid some hands from time-to-time if you allow for the pre-balance values when partner really has a great hand. But that happens also when they don't typically open so light sometimes too. In the long run, OBAR has been working quite well for me -- especially at matchpoints. I think it worked ok for Larry too which is why he described it in "to bid or not to bid".