New age method?

[Al_U_Card]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sk9753ha954d3ct52]133|100|Scoring: MP

P - P - 1♦ - P

1♠ - P - 2♦ - P

??[/hv]

 

Playing modern 2/1, local club game. What is your call and why?

[inquiry]

If you really want new age, the "modern" players would have responded 2♥ to 1♦ (or 1♣) with this hand to show 5♠ and 4+♥ and weak hand. So in the new age, they could not hold this hand. I fall into that group as well, so I abstain in general.

 

If playing with a pickup partner and no agreement to play the above "reverse flannery by responder", I guess I would follow SAYC rules where a new suit by responder is forcing. So if I was stuck on this auction with these limitations, I would "pass" 2♦.

[Gerben42]

Playing oldfashioned stuff without the Reverse F, Pass.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

you can either pass or bid 2H,

opener knows your a passed

hand, i.e. if he believes chances

are not existing, he will pass 2H,

give preference to 2S or rebid

diamonds.

 

And being a passed hand, you have

inv. values (8 loosers).

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[david_c]

Definitely pass. Even though being a passed hand means you have a non-forcing 2♥ bid available, you should still want a better hand than this for the bid.

 

Even if 2♥ was specifically defined as showing a weak hand like this, I would still prefer to pass! I want to stop bidding on this misfit as soon as I can.

 

Incidentally, if you want "new age", for me (playing "Siege" or my variant of Polish Club) the 2♦ rebid would deny four hearts. Problem solved.

[Al_U_Card]

Hi,

 

you can either pass or bid 2H,

opener knows your a passed

hand, i.e. if he believes chances

are not existing, he will pass 2H,

give preference to 2S or rebid

diamonds.

 

And being a passed hand, you have

inv. values (8 loosers).

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Granted there are 8 losers for a trump fit. The problem is that with a 7 loser opener, pard will likely accept and you will be one trick short. The LTC evaluation does get a downgrade for the lack of intermediates here.....2 good cards and then blech!

[cherdano]

And being a passed hand, you have

inv. values (8 loosers).

Even when you are using a bad valuation method, you should downgrade for shortness in partner's suit. (If you treat this as an 8 loser hand, you are treating it the same as if you had just found a heart fit with partner's 1st suit being clubs.)

[bid_em_up]

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Pass. Seems clear-cut.

 

Why?

 

Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).

Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.

Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).

Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.

If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.

 

So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

you can either pass or bid 2H,

opener knows your a passed

hand, i.e. if he believes chances

are not existing, he will pass 2H,

give preference to 2S or rebid

diamonds.

 

And being a passed hand, you have

inv. values (8 loosers).

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Granted there are 8 losers for a trump fit. The problem is that with a 7 loser opener, pard will likely accept and you will be one trick short. The LTC evaluation does get a downgrade for the lack of intermediates here.....2 good cards and then blech!

Hi,

 

A opener holding 7 loosers is a

min opener (*), which means he will

not accept game with any 7 looser

hand.

Opener knows I am passed hand,

if he can envision game oppossite

a passed hand, game will have play.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

(*) You may say min opener in 3rd seat?,

no, but a min opener in 1st and 2nd seat.

[Al_U_Card]

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Pass. Seems clear-cut.

 

Why?

 

Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).

Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.

Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).

Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.

If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.

 

So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.

Exactly. Without the fancier methods, this is more common sense than anything "standard" which might allow for some creativity (in finding ways to get to a disaster faster :o

 

The question that I now have is, what kind of hand could raise 1S to 2S with only 3 and with 3-1-6-3, what would be the requirements for the direct raise?

[P_Marlowe]

And being a passed hand, you have

inv. values (8 loosers).

Even when you are using a bad valuation method, you should downgrade for shortness in partner's suit. (If you treat this as an 8 loser hand, you are treating it the same as if you had just found a heart fit with partner's 1st suit being clubs.)

Ok. Would I invite, in case I would

not have been a passed hand? No.

I.e. I dont claim the hand is worth a

normal invite, but on the other hand,

the hand has some playing strength,

assuming we find a fit.

... and the partial in hearts / spades may

be better than the partial in diamonds,

because we may play a 5-1 fit.

 

All I am saying is, that you can introduce

hearts, because risk is fairly small and you

may even reach game and game is still possible

if you find a fit in a mayor, it depends a lot

on the required strength for a 3D jump rebid.

But you can also pass.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: In another post someone mentioned that

opener may have raised with 3 cards in spade,

if your partnership does this, than the upside

potential of a 2H bid goes down, if you rarely do,

than 2H gets more attractive.

[jdonn]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sk9753ha954d3ct52]133|100|Scoring: MP

P  -  P  - 1♦ - P

1♠ - P - 2♦  -  P

??[/hv]

 

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Just one in a series of countless examples of why rebidding the minor should show 6, as I'm always telling my European and South American friends who love to do it with 5 :o At least I know if I pass I am not in a ridiculous contract, whereas they will have no clue where they belong.

[Apollo81]

Reverse F is meant to show hands like this, as has been pointed out. If you're not playing that then pass and hope for the best.

[pclayton]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sk9753ha954d3ct52]133|100|Scoring: MP

P  -   P  - 1♦ - P

1♠ - P - 2♦  -  P

??[/hv]

 

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Just one in a series of countless examples of why rebidding the minor should show 6, as I'm always telling my European and South American friends who love to do it with 5 :P At least I know if I pass I am not in a ridiculous contract, whereas they will have no clue where they belong.

Those poor depraved people!

 

Imagine rebidding 2 minor on a 3=4=5=1, and discovering you have TWO 8 card fits, as you languish in your 5-1 :P

[Al_U_Card]

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Pass. Seems clear-cut.

 

Why?

 

Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).

Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.

Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).

Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.

If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.

 

So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.

Exactly. Without the fancier methods, this is more common sense than anything "standard" which might allow for some creativity (in finding ways to get to a disaster faster :P

 

The question that I now have is, what kind of hand could raise 1S to 2S with only 3 and with 3-1-6-3, what would be the requirements for the direct raise?

So here is opener's hand.[hv=s=sj84h2dkqt942cak3]133|100|upon hearing the 2♥ rebid by the passed hand, 3♠ was offered and passed out, down 1.[/hv]

 

So the question is, what is the direct raise to 2♠ worth opposite a passed hand versus the 2♦ rebid.

[Apollo81]

This thread begs an interesting question. I've noticed a trend recently where good players have agreed that 1m-1h-1s-1n-2h does not show extra values (you must jump to 3h with a good hand).

 

Might this be extendable to 1d-1s-2c-2d-2s?

[Apollo81]

So the question is, what is the direct raise to 2♠ worth opposite a passed hand versus the 2♦ rebid.

With KQ10xxx of diamonds I would rebid 2♦, and I don't think it's a decision.

[jdonn]

This thread begs an interesting question. I've noticed a trend recently where good players have agreed that 1m-1h-1s-1n-2h does not show extra values (you must jump to 3h with a good hand).

 

Might this be extendable to 1d-1s-2c-2d-2s?

No, the first auction is different since you are still looking for the correct major suit fit. In the second there is not nearly as much reason to introduce a new minor when you could just raise partner's major.

[the hog]

3 card support and a singleton. This is a 2S raise, and no, it is not close.

In answer to the original posted problem, I would pass 2D.

[1eyedjack]

I have known some who would respond 1H with 5xS and 4xH on a hand that is only worth one bid. You find a 5-4 Spade fit or a 4-4 Heart fit and miss out on a 5-3 Spade fit. But not all hands with 3 Spades would support 1S response anyway, so you are not always missing out on something that is otherwise attainable (I am assuming that Yrennalf is not not in force of course).

[Al_U_Card]

3 card support and a singleton. This is a 2S raise, and no, it is not close.

In answer to the original posted problem, I would pass 2D.

I was really close to raising to 2S but the passed hand status of pard led me to prefer the 6-? fit over the 3-4+ fit. The baby H and the AK of C I think now tends more toward the S raise however.

[Fluffy]

Those poor depraved people!

 

Imagine rebidding 2 minor on a 3=4=5=1, and discovering you have TWO 8 card fits, as you languish in your 5-1 :P

some of us (depraved people) would rebid 1NT with 3451 to avoid that, 1453 is the problem, you can't have it all :(.

[mikeh]

This is a tough one for me to answer, because so much depends not merely on methods (for me 2♥ here is usually an artificial one round force) but also style... as in the extent to which partner's 2♦ rebid tends to deny 3 card ♠ support.

 

It is 'wrong', imho, to argue that there is a standard approach to this 3 card raise issue, or, indeed, to the suit length that is or should be shown by the 2♦ rebid. For one thing, it is a style issue as to whether one rebids 1N on 1=4=5=3, or manufactures a temporizing 2♣ rebid or rebids 2♦. Similarly, where one draws the line between 2♠ and 2♦ is stylistic.

 

My preference on the hand in question is that even by a passed hand, the 2♥ rebid by responder is best played as ostensibly a one round force.

 

So I would not make the bid: I sympathize with the fear of the 5-1 ♦ fit, or even the 6-1 when a 4-4 ♥ fit was available, but the hand is too weak to persist in what will usually be the futile search for the magic hand.

 

Having said that, my style also has me raising 1♠ to 2♠ despite having poor texture and a good ♦ suit. My rationale is that this hand is actually pretty good in support of ♠s. Catch partner with a decent 5 card suit and the right 10 count, and game will be a very good spot... yet he may be passing 2♦ on KQ10xx xxxx Ax xx whereas he will likely make a move over 2♠.

 

So what is 'right' here, in the sense of general hand types is one matter, and what is 'right' on the actual hand is a somewhat different matter. There are 5413 hands on which I would make a one round 2♥ ostensible force, and there are 3=1=6=3 hands on which I would rebid 2♦, but they do not include the actual hands on display.

[bid_em_up]

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Pass. Seems clear-cut.

 

Why?

 

Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).

Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.

Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).

Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.

If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.

 

So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.

Exactly. Without the fancier methods, this is more common sense than anything "standard" which might allow for some creativity (in finding ways to get to a disaster faster :P

 

The question that I now have is, what kind of hand could raise 1S to 2S with only 3 and with 3-1-6-3, what would be the requirements for the direct raise?

So here is opener's hand.[hv=s=sj84h2dkqt942cak3]133|100|upon hearing the 2♥ rebid by the passed hand, 3♠ was offered and passed out, down 1.[/hv]

 

So the question is, what is the direct raise to 2♠ worth opposite a passed hand versus the 2♦ rebid.

I would bid 2S with this hand.

 

This hand is much better for spades than many hands with 4 trump.

 

It has 1st & 2nd round club controls, a good side suit, and 2nd round heart control.

 

It does contain a spade honor.

 

2S is the most encouraging "sounding" bid you can make, without dramatically overstating the values of the hand.

 

All partner really needs is something like AQxxx Axx xxx xx and 4S is practically cold. So on this holding, we actually want to encourage partner to bid again. Even if you end if 4S on a 4-3 fit, it will not necessarily be bad, as the heart ruffs will be taken in the short trump hand, and the diamond suit can provide the required tricks.

 

On the other hand, if my hand was Jxx x KJxxxx AQx, I would not be quite as eager to raise to 2S (although some would), since the diamond suit is lacking in texture.

[Flame]

Not even close for me, add the Q of club and i still pass.