How to co-operat with partner's jump reverse?

[bid_better]

 [hv=d=s&v=b&n=sakqxhkqxdxcakxxx&s=sxxxhaxxdqxxcqxxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Playing regular 2/1[/hv]

 

The auction goes:

 

South West North East

pass    pass   1♣     pass

1nt     pass    2♠    pass

3♣     pass    3♥    pass  

 ?

 

It looks North has a pretty big hand and is trying something more than a game, now for south, how to co-operate with the partner with this hand?

[mike777]

 [hv=d=s&v=b&n=sakqxhkqxdxcakxxx&s=sxxxhaxxdqxxcqxxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Playing regular 2/1[/hv]

 

The auction goes:

 

South     West    North     East

pass         pass          1♣        pass

1nt      pass    2♠    pass

3♣     pass    3♥    pass  

 ?

 

It looks North has a pretty big hand and is trying something more than a game, now for south, how to co-operate with the partner with this hand?

1) Object strongly, 3 loser hand, great controls, long minor I open 2clubs.

2) Given your constraints, 3clubs for me is slam try, max hand so now I( north) bid 4d rkc. South could hardly have a worse hand. In fact this is a really dead minimum 3c hand. After 3clubs I am much more concerned about missing a perfect fit grand.

[Apollo81]

4♦ would be co-operating with partner's attempts, although it's not clear that you want to co-operate if 3♣ showed extra values.

[Winstonm]

4H. Having denied a major with 1N, bid the values you have. Being below game level there should be no great extra strength implied by this bid, just a good fit and a control.

[mike777]

Sigh i give up this seems to be a really really easy hand to bid oh well.

 

As I mentioned more worried about missing the grand after pard bids 3clubs.

[Dwingo]

4♥. Fill the gaps in partner's ♥ holding. He would be in better position to assess.

[SoTired]

4H, wtp? What else?

1) Can't pass, in GF auction

2) Nothing to q-bid in spades, so can't bid 3S

3) Can't bid 3N because ♦Qxx is not a stopper when partner bids 3 suits

4) 4C denies having anything to q-bid and denies we like our hand. But that is not true. We have a great hand for partner with good 4-card club support and a near max 1N. And we have the ♥A to q-bid.

5) Can't bid 4D, because don't have a diam q-bid

 

So 4H is the only logical choice. I don't know if opener should open 2C or not - I would - but that still does not relieve us from the obligation to show our only q-bid.

 

BTW, where was the jump reverse? Is the title in error or is the posted auction?

[jdonn]

4♣. Here are some of my thoughts.

 

- Totally agree with the 1♣ opening, in fact it became very easy to describe his hand accurately after that, whereas after 2♣ partner might have a very hard time expressing his second suit or his shortness.

 

- 4♥ at this point sounds much too encouraging to me, xxx of spades is very bad and the queen of diamonds is wastepaper. I think if partner had his actual hand but minus the spade queen, he would be entitled to bid blackwood over that and we would be in a no play slam. He would play us for xx AJx xxxx Qxxx or Qxx Axx xxx Qxxx.

 

- 4♣ is not discouraging, it merely keeps the forcing auction going. It also gives partner a very useful clue that we have useful cards outside of diamonds, since there is a negative inference that we didn't bid 3NT. Over 4♣ I think partner can just bid blackwood and push toward slam, since we can't have more than 2 points in diamonds but we made the value showing 3♣ bid before it is inconceivable we don't have an ace.

 

- Noble's idea of 4♦ just being sort of an artificial bid showing the most possible interest is interesting but I don't think it applies here. 4♦ would still promise diamond control, since we also have bids of 3♠ 4♣ 4♥ that we can make when we are really interested there is no reason to invent a cuebid in a random suit.

[mike777]

I must admit this is one of the most confusing threads in a long time for me.

 

I just think this is a really easy hand after 2club opener. 2c!=2d!=3c=4c=4d(rkc)

IF I must open one club...ok.. still an easy hand I just rkc 4d over 3clubs...sigh.

3 club bidder could not have a worse worse hand./

[Finch]

I also agree with the 1♣ opener. I don't think opener is worth a game force, particularly with clubs as his longest suit.

 

The 1NT response is also an excellent call. It is worth bearing in mind, however, that for many people (including me) the 1NT response promises 4 clubs and denies any other 4-card suit, while for many other people it doesn't. Whichever style is being played here has an impact on how both opener and responder evaluate their hands later in the auction.

 

The 2♠ rebid by North is an excellent call. Shows extra values, 4 spades, longer clubs, at least game interest and is forcing for a round.

 

Now comes responder's 3♣ call. There have been a couple of comments that imply this is 'value showing' or a 'slam try'. 3♣ certainly can't be a slam try as 1NT was a limit bid and opener hasn't (yet) shown the values to force to game. Now, many people play that after responder's 1-level suit responder and opener's 2-level reverse, 2NT shows a bad hand and suits are forcing (e.g. 1C - 1S - 2H - 2NT weak, 3C game forcing). This auction is not the same, because responder has already limited their hand, and (for many people) also pretty much limited their distribution. That makes 2NT useful as a natural, descriptive bid in context. It is certainly possible to play 2NT as lebensohl here, but it is not standard, nor something that should be assumed without it being stated (in two regular partnerships I play 2NT as artificial in one of them and natural in the other). I would say it is more useful to play 2NT as artificial if the 1NT response was fairly non-specific, and more useful to play it as natural if the 1NT response promised four clubs and denied another 4-card suit.

 

So if 3♣ does show extra values, and responder hasn't yet shown 4 clubs, then responder is about down the middle for the call, and has a difficult choice over 3♥. If 3♣ does not show anything extra, whether or not responder has already shown 4 clubs, then responder is maximum and easily worth 4♥ on the next round.

 

Thus I can't tell you who has the extra values once the auction has reached this point, because it depends so much on agreements so far. And emphasizes how even a simple auction 1C - 1NT - 2S - 3C can have so many different meanings depending on the style of responding to 1C that you play.

[Free]

Aren't we on the way to slam yet?

 

I wonder why people in this situation don't cuebid their singletons at 3-level but prefer to pattern out...

[whereagles]

I like 4♥, though I'd prefer to have that ♦Q on spades for that. But hey, it ain't a perfect world.

 

If there's a chance pard will misunderstand 4♥, then 4♣ is fine.

[helene_t]

Aren't we on the way to slam yet?

 

I wonder why people in this situation don't cuebid their singletons at 3-level but prefer to pattern out...

Technically it may not matter if you show a 5431 by bidding your 3-card than by bidding your singleton in the third round.

 

It's just easier to remember that we pattern out because there are other situations in which we have to do that, either to avoid a sac-suggesting double of our singleton bid or because opener's third suit is not forcing.

 

If by "cuebidding" you mean showing a control which might be a singleton, a king or whatever, I don't think it would be very helpful for partner.

 

I'm not sure if 4♣ would be forcing here. I just bid 4♥, that should be a reasonably clear message.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

4C, over 4D bid 4H.

 

Seeing both hands makes it easy, ...

 

You dont have a real diamond stopper

and no desire to play 3NT opposite

a diamond singleton.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: 3H was game forcing hence 4C is

forcing.

[Edmunte1]

As i see South hand contains some pluses and minuses:

Pluses:

-♣Q and especially 4th trump are great, allowing us to ruff 4th spade

-♥A especially not in partner's singleton is good

Minuses:

- 3rd spade, if partner doesn't have AKQ♠ we will have a late loser in this suit, ans more, no chance to escape of it.

-♦Q looks preety wasted, but it could do some good , especially if partener has something like a stiff king in diamonds

 

So i think 4♣ is the right bid after 3♣ GF (if you play it this way), and 4♥ on 4♦. I also think 1♣ opening was ok

[Fluffy]

bidding looks good by now, all 4♣, 4♦ and 4♥ are correct IMO, I would go with 4♣ and then 5♣ because 6 working HCP with 3♥ is not a great hand after all.

[Fluffy]

Aren't we on the way to slam yet?

 

I wonder why people in this situation don't cuebid their singletons at 3-level but prefer to pattern out...

I don't play 3♣ as slam interest, you will often have no better bid with only 1 red suit.

[bid_better]

Thanks all for your valuable comments. I have to say sorry for the error of title"Jump Reverse", which should be "Normal Reverse" here.

 

This hand was played between me and my partner in the swiss team of a regional tournament last weekend. For our partnership, 3♣ rebid by south just agrees ♣ fit which could be only 3 cards. 3♥ by North was a hand patten's decription as well as extra value showing. 4♥ advance by south should be a obvious cuebid which also denies ♦ control as 4♦ is skipped. This informstion seems enough for North to move forward for 6♣, but the only question left for North is: how to investigate ♣Q from south's hand? it seems RKC Black Wood doesn't work here as South can't show trump Q with only one key card and North can's afford to ask ♣Q at 5 level after RKC. Should this point be considered by South before he makes his call vs 3♥?

[Codo]

it seems RKC Black Wood doesn't work here as South can't show trump Q with only one key card and North can's afford to ask ♣Q at 5 level after RKC. Should this point be considered by South before he makes his call vs 3♥?

 

This should be considered while talking about the system in general. The easiest ways to handle this problem is to bid RCKB with 4 of the agreed minor ( 4 Club here) or with kickback (4 Diamond here). This safes a lot of badly needed room for your responses for quite a small price.

[mike777]

Ditto, I really like Kickback, granted it is confusing at first, and I bid rkc much more than most of the forum posters.

 

BTW one more push for structured reverses, they made this hand easy.

[cherdano]

it seems RKC Black Wood doesn't work here as South can't show trump Q with only one key card and North can's afford to ask ♣Q at 5 level after RKC. Should this point be considered by South before he makes his call vs 3♥?

 

This should be considered while talking about the system in general. The easiest ways to handle this problem is to bid RCKB with 4 of the agreed minor ( 4 Club here) or with kickback (4 Diamond here). This safes a lot of badly needed room for your responses for quite a small price.

Well, many (me included) doubt that the price is small. You get to ask your keycards, but you lose a lot of room for exploring strain/cuebidding etc.

[jdonn]

it seems RKC Black Wood doesn't work here as South can't show trump Q with only one key card and North can's afford to ask ♣Q at 5 level after RKC. Should this point be considered by South before he makes his call vs 3♥?

 

This should be considered while talking about the system in general. The easiest ways to handle this problem is to bid RCKB with 4 of the agreed minor ( 4 Club here) or with kickback (4 Diamond here). This safes a lot of badly needed room for your responses for quite a small price.

The price is huge. This convention leads to more misunderstandings than any other convention in the universe. If you are going to play it, spend a long time discussing first :)

[Finch]

The price is huge. This convention leads to more misunderstandings than any other convention in the universe. If you are going to play it, spend a long time discussing first :)

Apart from Ghestem, that is.

 

But I certainly refuse to play virtually any form of Kickback and I don't miss it.

[Codo]

In this hand, just as an example, you have a fit and already a game forcing.

What more place exactly do you need for

a lot of room for exploring strain/cuebidding etc.

.

You loose exactly one bid ( 4 Club or 4 Diamond) and you win exactly one bid 4 NT, so sorry, your comment is pointless.

 

And:

The price is huge. This convention leads to more misunderstandings than any other convention in the universe. If you are going to play it, spend a long time discussing first 

 

I personally don´t play kickback in non competetive auctions, but I don´t see, why this should be too difficult. Te only real problem you need to discuss is, when both pds bid their touching suits, like 1 ♦ 1 ♥ 3 ♦ 3 ♥ 4 ♥ and what to do in competetive situations.

But don´t you remember your ongoing discussions with your pd in which situations 4 NT was plain KC, a two suiter, inviting, for the minors, take out, or RCKB? OF course you can handle all these different situations, but this needed discussions too, so I don´t buy that kickback is too difficult for you.

[jdonn]

If all you can do is call other peoples' posts pointless then you will convince no one of anything. And Cherdano made an excellent point. You need plenty more information before galloping off toward slam than knowing you have a fit and a game force. That is why you don't often see auctions like 1♥ p 2NT(raise) p 4NT. If you play kickback, you lose the room to do any cuebidding on the four level when the suit is a minor (unless you want to bypass the keycard ask altogether), and so you will often be taking the risk of being off AK of a suit. If you believe the ability to have a cheaper keycard is worth that risk then good for you, but the alternative view isn't pointless simply because you disagree with it.

 

Pardon me for not really caring whether you "buy it" when you admit that you don't play the convention. There are many other situations in which it is unclear how the bid is meant, or best used.

 

1♦ p 1♥ p 3♦ p ?

Is 4♥ keycard? If you don't believe that is a misunderstanding waiting to happen then you are being naive. Is 4♦ keycard? Then you lose the chance for any intelligent exploration since responder can't simply make a forcing diamond raise, he has to just decide we are bidding keycard or we aren't.

 

How about 1♦ (1♥) DBL (2♥) 3♣ (3♥) ? Now what? Is 4♦ keycard for clubs and you can't raise diamonds? Is 4♣ keycard for clubs and you can't raise clubs? Do you think both partners will be on the same page in any case? It's not impossible to answer these questions but it's very very difficult. A partnership that wants to play this convention really has to put the work in, that's what I was saying.