To Slam or not to Slam

[sceptic]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sa952hat82daqj76c&w=skt63hqdt8cqj9743&e=sj84hj76dk9542c82&s=sq7hk9543d3cakt65]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     1♥

 Pass  4♣    Pass  4♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

 

 

1/. is my splinter any good? (we do not play exclusion)

 

2/. is game best contract?

 

half the slams made half went down

 

How would you bid this playing 2/1

[paulg]

There is always debate on the strength required for a splinter but I don't think it works if you are too strong. I prefer that they show closer to a minimum for the level of the bid.

 

In this case, what do you expect your partner to bid after 4♣? Holding at most one ace he is unlikely to do anything other than bid 4♥ and you have no idea about the level that you want to play in.

 

So I think it would be better to start with 2♦ initially, go slower and learn more about the hand. As you imply, it is unclear whether slam is that good but you'd like to have made a more informed decision.

 

As it happens, if the auction goes 1♥-2♦-2♥-4♣=splinter at least focuses partner's mind on the importance of diamond honours, but I would make another try after the 4♥ sign-off and play in 5♥ or 6♥.

 

p

[kenrexford]

The splinter is not so good unless partner is expcted to visualize three Aces and a semi-solid suit of the side, which is unlikely. In other words, you are probably way too good for a splinter.

 

Using 2/1 GF, the stande-out is a simple 2♦. Now, theories and styles diverge, but the end result is the same. Opener will either rebid 3♣ or 2♥, depending on style. In either event, you are probably forced to rebid 3♥. However, after 2♥ (using that style), you might now consider a splinter, perhaps, as this would imply a strong diamond holding and/or stronger splinter, perhaps.

 

In any event, after 3♥, you still will have quite a daunting task. Opener's next call will probably indicate that he lacks the spade King or shortness in spades. There is not much in the way of room to break this one down.

 

For my part, I'd suggest that the luckiest pair on this hand uses a technique where 3♣ cannot be bid, opener instead temporizing with 2♥. Responder can then splinter into diamonds, focusing the shortness and the quality of the diamonds. If Opener resigns to 4♥, Responder might stab again with 4♠. This sounds a lot like the hand described.

[zasanya]

Splinter is not a good idea as unless P has ♦ K she is forced to bid 4♥.If she has ♦ K slam or grand slam is possible.If she has ♠ K and reasonable trumps slam is possible.The way to pass this information could be through the following 2/1 sequence.

1♥-2♦-3♣-3♠-4♣ and now 5♥.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 no, the hand is to strong, if possible,

make a forcing raise, else go via 2D

#2 trumps 2-2 you are home, and the slam

is probably better than that since I am

not very good in judging those things, i.e.

slam is quite ok

Discovering the club shortage / club wastage

you will most likely end up in 4H

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[inquiry]

1. Yes, you are much, much too strong for a splinter bid. This is a topic often discussed on the BBF... last time i discussed it was...

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...ndpost&p=180425

 

2/. is game best contract?

 

half the slams made half went down

 

How would you bid this playing 2/1

 

On this hand, double dummy, the best contract is 7♥. In seven the line of play is quite hair-raising, but might work even in six. Let's assume club queen lead (as good as any), ruff in dummy. Heart ACE and spy the drop of heart queen. I may need to ruff some clubs in dummy, so I will try to set up diamond for a spade discard by beginning with diamond ACE and diamond Queen, planning on throwing spade loser if not covered. Rather covered or not, note the fall of the diamond TEN-EIGHT from LHO. If covered, ruff a club with the HEART TEN, if not covered, lead the diamond Jack, and ruff. Eventually, when EAST covers a diamond, ruff another club with the TEN (unblock), and lead the diamond 7 forcing a cover, ruff, cross to the ♠A, cash the good ♦ (winning 3 ♦'s), then hook the ♥J by playing ♥8 towards you K9, and your only other two cards are ♣AK. All in all you win 1♠, 5♥, 3♦, 2♣ and 2 ♣ ruffs for 13 tricks.

 

The diamond play seems reasonable line in six as if the ruffing finessee if off, you still ditch a loser on loser (spade pitch), and you score 2D, 1S, 5H, 2C, and 2 C ruffs (12 tricks). You could try similar line with straight diamond hook. And should West have QJ doubleton heart you avoid the misguess on the ruffing finessee. And setting up a long diamond is better odds if diamonds split 4-3 is helpful on lots of lines.

 

How would i bid it...?

 

1H-2D

2H-3H

4C-4D

4S-4N

5H-6H

P

 

4C = denies spade control, promises club control, no slam interest

4D = slam try, promises spade control

4H = i am bad even for the current bidding

4N = we try anyway

5H = 2 keycards, no heart queen

6H = ok, ZAR says I got to bid this one... We have super fit, you have at least 26 ZARS, I have 35 plus our super fit points have to be at least 8 and probably closer to 10. That comes to 79 ZARS to 81 ZARS, enough for GRAND SLAM but we are missing the trump queen so six is enough.

[cherdano]

You are waaaaay too strong to splinter, unless you plan to bid on over 4♥. A splinter usually shows around 10-12(13) hcp, a singleton, and 4 trumps. Instead you have a void, 15 hcp including THREE ACES, and an excellent 5-card suit.

2♦ is a reasonable way to start and would be my choice; the other plan would be to splinter 4♣ and give it another try with 5♣ over 4♥, showin a substantially stronger splinter.

[jdonn]

I actually think it is reasonable to splinter and just bid 6♥ over partner's 4♥. Slam may not always be great, but often will and should just about always have a play (it will rarely be worse than a diamond finesse I believe). And it makes sense to give up on the grand when partner signs off after your splinter. So why not make things simple?

 

Agree with others that it's ok to start with a different bid on north's hand, but if you splinter on a hand this good you have to be bidding again.

[skjaeran]

Minisplinters are widely used here. Many misuse these on stronger hands than just game inv. With my previous partner we used mini-maxi splinters.

 

1M-4m/1♠-4♥/1♥-3♠ then showed a void and gamegoing values only, while jumps to the 3-level where 2-way: Either a minisplinter showing a singleton and gameinv values or a void and too strong for a direct voidshowing splinter. With stronger hands with a singleton we bid 2NT (GF raise).

 

Here we would bid:

1♥ - 3♣

3♦ - 3♠ (3♦=short ♣ isn't great but game is ok, 3♠=cue, confirming ♣ void and slammish)

4♦ - ? (4♦=last train)

 

Responder would have to evaluate here. We might stop in game or bid slam.

[SoTired]

I don't think the splinter hurt anything, but it did not provide much useful info. With such a strong hand and 1st round control in all 4 suits(!!!), responder wants to play 6H opposite almost any 1H opener that includes a heart honor or 6-card suit. So responder is mostly interested only in baby/grand decision. Think about it: All responder needs for grand is ♦K and ♥KQxxx and responder can count 13 tricks (1♠+5♥+5♦+2 club ruffs).

 

Are you playing ERKC? If so, Respond J2N (or whatever) initially, then jump to 5C ERKC. If opener shows 1 keycard, ask for ♥Q. Since that shows 4-card support, opener can show ♥Q with ♥Kxxxxx or ♥KQxxx.

 

The major problem is if opener shows 0 keycards, you won't have the room to find out opener may hold ♥Jxxxx, but that is so unlikely, I would not worry about it.

 

In the subject hand, after the 4C splinter and opener tries to sign-off in 4H, responder should just bid 6H. Passing was very timid.

[the hog]

"I actually think it is reasonable to splinter and just bid 6♥ over partner's 4♥."

 

If you are going to bid 6H over 4H why bother splintering in the first place, to tell the opps know you are short in C? Far better to start with 2D to show that suit is a potential source of tricks.

[cherdano]

"I actually think it is reasonable to splinter and just bid 6♥ over partner's 4♥."

 

If you are going to bid 6H over 4H why bother splintering in the first place, to tell the opps know you are short in C? Far better to start with 2D to show that suit is a potential source of tricks.

Uhm. Let me guess. I guess because Josh wants to try for 7 in case partner doesn't bid 4♥ only.

 

Josh, did I guess right?

[the hog]

♠ 7x

♥ KQJ43

D Kx

♣ KJT6

 

Would he bid more than 4H with this Arend?

edited:

Ok I added 1 more D and 1 less C and gave him the J of H.

He will still sign off, and now you miss an excellent grand.

[jdonn]

"I actually think it is reasonable to splinter and just bid 6♥ over partner's 4♥."

 

If you are going to bid 6H over 4H why bother splintering in the first place, to tell the opps know you are short in C? Far better to start with 2D to show that suit is a potential source of tricks.

Because you found out partner didn't like your splinter, which tells you a grand is very unlikely. I didn't say it's impossible but I am no longer interested in looking. And likewise if partner had done anything else we would be well placed with that information as well.

 

By the way, play 7♥ on your example with a spade lead. Admittedly having just having glanced briefly, do you see something better than needing 4-3 diamonds and 2-2 hearts? Enjoy your 12% grands.

 

Good call Arend!

[the hog]

Ok Just change the hand slightly, and still give opener C values and he will still sign off in 4H. He will never be able to evaluate the true worth of the DK. The fact is that the splinter is a lazy bid holding such a potential source of tricks in D.

[jdonn]

Please tell me your auction to bid that grand but not bid it if partner lacks the jack of hearts (in which case you are up to a sparkling 34% or so grand with some slight extra chances, you could very generously call it 40%.)

 

Or are you implying that you are bidding 7♥ 100% if partner has the three cards you are missing? Don't forget your original example...

[the hog]

This discussion is somewhat pointless as you are clearly not prepared to accept the argument that splintering and the bidding 6 over a sign off means that you will miss a good grand opposite many hands pd could have. What do you lose by going via 2D?

 

However to humour you:

 

1H-2D

2H-3H

3N-4C

4D-4N

5D-5S

6C-7H

 

3N frivolous, 4C cue, 4D cue and not small s/t as it is in pd's suit,

4N KC, 5D = 1, 5S = Q of trump ask, 6C = "yes & Knave", but no extra trump length.

You would have to be stiff not to find a hand where the grand doesn't have a good play.

[EricK]

There are certain hands where your thoughts should be along the lines of "I am bidding this hand to slam unless I find very good evidence that it won't be a good contract.". A five loser hand with good controls and primary support for opener's suit is one such hand. Given that, you need to come up with a sequence which supplies you with this information. There is also the question of small slam or grand which needs answering.

 

Does a ♣ splinter really help anwer either of these questions? I think not. There are plenty of minimum opening hands with ♣ honours which make a grand slam a laydown never mind the small slam! Since ♦K is such a useful card for partner, it makes sense to start with 2♦. Then if you can start a cuebidding sequence, partner can tell you if he has the ♦K. Another approach is to use a J2NT response. Then if partner shows no shortage or a shortage other than♦, a cuebidding sequence should also identify the ♦K if he has it.

[jdonn]

This discussion is somewhat pointless as you are clearly not prepared to accept the argument that splintering and the bidding 6 over a sign off means that you will miss a good grand opposite many hands pd could have. What do you lose by going via 2D?

 

However to humour you:

 

1H-2D

2H-3H

3N-4C

4D-4N

5D-5S

6C-7H

 

3N frivolous, 4C cue, 4D cue and not small s/t as it is in pd's suit,

4N KC, 5D = 1, 5S = Q of trump ask, 6C = "yes & Knave", but no extra trump length.

You would have to be stiff not to find a hand where the grand doesn't have a good play.

Lol I don't know what I like more, the jack of trumps showing bid (why would anyone ever want to show outside kings when they can show the trump jack), or the fact you had no idea if partner's keycard was the heart king or club ace.

 

You are right, this discussion is clearly pointless :(

[awm]

Of course grand is good opposite:

 

Kxx

KQxxx

Kx

Kxx

 

I'm not sure I'd cuebid over a splinter with this hand (sure it's a little better than a minimum opener, but the club king is wasted).

 

Then again grand is also good opposite:

 

KQJx

KQJxx

x

xxx

 

and I'm not sure this hand would be excited by a 2♦ bid followed by a raise.

 

On the other hand, if you know partner will bid 2♥ over 1♥-2♦ on all minimums, then you're probably fairly safe to start with the 2♦ bid. If partner rebids 2♥ you can splinter (4♣) next, and if partner bids above 2♥ you're definitely in "looking for grand" mode (not to say you can't stop in six if partner has the worst possible hand with extras).

[SoTired]

Please tell me your auction to bid that grand but not bid it if partner lacks the jack of hearts (in which case you are up to a sparkling 34% or so grand with some slight extra chances, you could very generously call it 40%.)

With KQxxx opposite Axxx only an unfinessable 4-0 break kills the grand, which is less than 10%.

[whereagles]

Over an unlimited opener, you either splinter with a VERY WELL DEFINED hand (as in 9-11 or 10-12 hcp, letting opener take charge) or you'll end up with endless discussions of the type "who should have done what?"

 

Over a limited opener it's another story, but over an unlimited one, unlimited splinters are, in my opinion, technically wrong.

[jdonn]

Please tell me your auction to bid that grand but not bid it if partner lacks the jack of hearts (in which case you are up to a sparkling 34% or so grand with some slight extra chances, you could very generously call it 40%.)

With KQxxx opposite Axxx only an unfinessable 4-0 break kills the grand, which is less than 10%.

Count the tricks and the entries in the hand I was referring to.

 

[hv=n=saxxxhatxxdaqjxxc&s=sxxhkqxxxdkxckjtx]133|200|[/hv]

 

You need 2 club ruffs in dummy. Spade lead to ace, diamond to king, club ruff, heart to queen, club ruff.....and you can't finish drawing trumps unless they are 2-2 (40%), plus you need 3-3 or 4-2 diamonds (85%). Same dilemma on a trump lead. If south had the jack of hearts it would be a far more respectable 77% (still far from cold! but pretty good).

 

This was essentially my whole point all along. You can't just assume you have a grand because partner has KQ of hearts and K of diamonds. You need something else, either club ace, spade king, 6th heart, or the jack of hearts. So all this talk about how I'm missing a grand on so many hands is really missing a grand on extremely few hands, and even many of them it was going to be difficult to bid confidently since partner could be lacking those features I mention.

 

I am always happy to be proven wrong by some good example hands or something, but sometimes people are so desperate to be right they don't consider the full implications of what they are claiming (not you).

[Impact]

On the original topic it is wrong to splinter with this hand for each of the following reasons in order of importance in my opinion:-

 

a) you are too strong: a splinter should show so that you can abide by partner's decision: but this hand is driving to at least small slam unless awfully adverse information comes to light;

 

:) you have a very good potential source of tricks in your side suit - and the DK is potentially crucial to GS ambitions, so you might as well introduce that now so that partner can value his DK - noting that HKQxxxx DKx and a few C will be an excellent GS regardless of minor black Honours!

c) Partner has no convenient acceptance of the splinter when you hold all the side first round controls - even if you played Last Train 4D, he would be reluctant to try with NO first round controls as it requires too many perfect cards risking 5-level...

 

d) unless you have specific bids which specify voids, ambiguous splinters are notoriously bad.

 

regards

[inquiry]

Did I miss it? Am I the only one to suggest a line of play. Figuring out how to play a hand without being biased when you see all four hands is not something I am good at. I wonder if my line (which on this hand makes 13 tricks) is really unintentional double dummy rather than single dummy. Anyone else going to take a stab at play.