how you deal with those type of hands

[jocdelevat]

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=saq2hk83d5caq7543]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     Pass  Pass  1♣

 Dbl   1♥    2♦    ?

 

 

here i bid 3c and i receive a criticize from my pard that i should double to show strong hand. Do you doube?

[jillybean]

I would not double but bid 2♥. LHO rates to have the ♠'s and my ♣ are not solid.

[Apollo81]

I'm sure this will not be popular but there is something to be said for opening 1NT on 3361 shape in the right strength range.

[kenrexford]

Do you play light initial action, where 8-HCP hands are routinely opened? I ask in jest, because this does not look like a "strong hand." I have the spade Queen in the wrong place, and my club suit lacks body.

 

That being said, 2♥ is my call. Partner's 1♥ call should show a suit/hand worthy of a heart contract opposite Kxx, especially when I have a stiff in their suit. Kxx is contextually much, much more than a mere one HCP greater than Qxx.

[awm]

Maybe a good first question is what the second double means in the auction:

 

1♣ - X- 1♥ - 2♦; X

 

I suspect most of us would assign the same meaning as in the auction:

 

1♣ - Pass - 1♥ - 2♦; X

 

My impression is that the standard meaning is that double is essentially penalty. This shows extra values and a strong diamond holding, not a particularly good fit for hearts. Typical might be something like a balanced 18-19 with doubleton heart: Axx Kx AQx KQxxx or a diamond-club two-suiter with extras: Kxx x KJTx AKJxx.

 

These days it's pretty popular to play that the double is support, showing a three-card raise of hearts. Whether this is mandatory with three-card support depends on agreement. Another possiblity is to play double as takeout, showing short diamonds, 2-3 hearts, 3-4 spades, and at least 4 clubs.

 

I'm not aware of any popular treatment where double is "extra values" without any indication about diamond or heart length.

 

Anyways, my recommendation on the example hand is to bid 2♥ or 3♣ if playing the standard meaning where double is basically penalty, or to double if playing support or takeout doubles in this type of auction.

[mike777]

Playing good/bad 2nt 3clubs shows extra so no problem. With a pickup partner I think x is just fine. Those expert pickup partners always bid x with any problem hand assuming it is not a support x which it would be for me but then I play good/bad and can rebid 3c with no issue. :)

 

Must admit 1nt opening or rebidding 2H really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, esp if a pickup partner did that.

[Gerben42]

Hands with a singleton, some extra playing strength and 3-card support for partner's major are notoriously hard to bid.

 

Dbl should not just show "a strong hand" but also playability in the remaining suits, but yes that would be my choice.

[skjaeran]

I play support doubles here, so would double to show 3c ♥ support.

 

Without it, I'd bid 2♥ or 3♣, most probably 2♥.

 

If the hand was just a little bit stronger, I'd bid 3♣, since I could come back with 3♥, if opps competed to 3♦.

[gwnn]

Obviously your hand is a bit better than a minimum opener. However, with 3♣ you convey that very message. Extras (with minimum you have the right to PASS), long good clubs. Yes, they're not good, but no bid is ever perfect.

 

Having said that, I think X should be support and then it's a much better call. Even if it weren't agreed to be support, it should be take-out, in which case I'd make it. Note however that this isn't the ideal shape either. It should much sooner be 4315 or 4216 rather than 3316.

 

Overall, 3♣ isn't bad, but X is a little better. So maybe you weren't right, but your partner wasn't right either - X isn't exactly a no-brainer.

[Edmunte1]

I play support doubles here too, so double would have shown 3 hearts. If partner bid 2♥, i'll bid one more time, inviting to game. Without support doubles, i'll still bid double, showing a offensive hand (take out)

[whereagles]

3♣ and blame pard for passing with a good 10 :rolleyes:

[goobers]

2♥

[DWM]

I have just started to use Rosenkranz (partially because I have learnt how to spell it)

 

With that in mind I would double here, top of the range for the double.

[mikeh]

I have just started to use Rosenkranz (partially because I have learnt how to spell it)

 

With that in mind I would double here, top of the range for the double.

Most play rosenkranz in response to partner's overcall: I have never heard of it in this context. Frankly, I don't think it to be a good idea, compared to other possible uses.

[mikeh]

Playing good/bad 2nt 3clubs shows extra so no problem.  With a pickup partner I think x is just fine.  Those expert pickup partners always bid x with any problem hand assuming it is not a support x which it would be for me but then I play good/bad and can rebid 3c with no issue. :)

 

Must admit 1nt opening or rebidding 2H really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, esp if a pickup partner did that.

You cannot, as far as I can see, play both good-bad 2N and support doubles.

 

If you play good-bad 2N, then what do you rebid with AQx Qx KQx AJxxx?

 

Had RHO passed, you'd rebid 2N

 

But RHO bid.

 

My understanding of good-bad 2N is that one uses 2N artificially, but that agreement does not eliminate the possibility of holding a balanced 18-19 hcp... so we use double to show a 2N rebid.

 

That in turn means that we cannot use support doubles here. We have to decide which agreement is more productive for our partnership but it is a logical fallacy (to my way of thinking, which may reflect more on my limited imagination than on your agreements :huh: ) to claim to play both support doubles and good-bad 2N here.

[jdonn]

Playing good/bad 2nt 3clubs shows extra so no problem.  With a pickup partner I think x is just fine.  Those expert pickup partners always bid x with any problem hand assuming it is not a support x which it would be for me but then I play good/bad and can rebid 3c with no issue. :)

 

Must admit 1nt opening or rebidding 2H really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, esp if a pickup partner did that.

You cannot, as far as I can see, play both good-bad 2N and support doubles.

 

If you play good-bad 2N, then what do you rebid with AQx Qx KQx AJxxx?

 

Had RHO passed, you'd rebid 2N

 

But RHO bid.

 

My understanding of good-bad 2N is that one uses 2N artificially, but that agreement does not eliminate the possibility of holding a balanced 18-19 hcp... so we use double to show a 2N rebid.

 

That in turn means that we cannot use support doubles here. We have to decide which agreement is more productive for our partnership but it is a logical fallacy (to my way of thinking, which may reflect more on my limited imagination than on your agreements :huh: ) to claim to play both support doubles and good-bad 2N here.

I think it's completely possible to play both conventions, and if you are stuck just bid 3NT on 18-19 balanced in a pinch. It takes up more room on that particular hand of 18-19 with 2 card support, but 3NT is extremely likely where you were headed anyway and you might judge the gains from the conventions to be greater.