new psych idea

[Flame]

RHO opens 1♣ and you holds KQ10972 in clubs and nothing else.

You double.

Had i seen it at the table id think the doubler is definetly a novice, but think of the most likely outcome of this, i think its most likely continue redouble P P P.

Now if they make just 7 tricks they get 230, if they make 8 they get a 3NT+1 score. I think there is a good chance that you will win mp here, but even if not its still good for a homour bridge book when the novice double and they get 630 while the rest of the field get a 650 in 4M+1, or 3NT+1 for a cool avarage.

[awm]

I wouldn't think that 1♣-X-XX-All Pass is really a very likely auction. In particular there's no reason advancer would pass (usually he will bid a suit at the one-level; he's actually pretty likely to have a five card suit to bid because he's apparently short in clubs). Also, even if the auction goes 1♣-X-XX-Pass, there's no reason opener will sit for it since he probably opened a weakish 3-4 card club suit. More likely might be 1♣-X-XX-2♣(only way to show values)-All Pass, but I wouldn't necessarily bet on this either.

 

Personally I've found that psyching takeout doubles usually doesn't work all that well, because partner is often eager to hang you. After all, unlike a simple overcall a takeout double supposedly shows opening values and some defensive strength.

[pclayton]

I think its silly :)

 

All is nice is pard passes the redouble, but you will start an auction impossible to control when pard bids. All club bids by you will be correctly construed as showing a monster hand.

 

I think a more effective psyche is overcalling 1N and passing the stayman response, but this has its own issues.

[glen]

Not a new idea if you've read Frank Vine.

 

Many years ago, I tried it once in a Swiss match, with a bit better ♣ suit. Instead of redoubling, responder bid a major, they found their fit, and got to game. I would have been better off jamming their auction.

[han]

Yup, agree with Adam.

[kenrexford]

About six years ago, I played with a guy who like for the double to show either a typical takeout shape or a weak hand with a solid holding in the opened minor. This was systemic, with the doubler allowed to pass the "forcing" cuebid (the cuebid was alerted and explained of course). The purpose was not so much psychic, but as a defense to the penalty redouble. If LHO has a classic penalty XX, and if we are in trouble, the auction often passes to Opener, who may very well panic and rescue us. Even if he does not rescue, good things can happen.

 

There are obviously some problems to work out with this approach (doubler's "cue" is natural and weak, for example), and it is funny that the GCC (ACBL) might not require an alert (cannot remember what we determined at the time), but the theory, even if not a psychic but agreed as an exception, seemed to work rather well.

[cherdano]

About six years ago, I played with a guy who like for the double to show either a typical takeout shape or a weak hand with a solid holding in the opened minor. This was systemic, with the doubler allowed to pass the "forcing" cuebid (the cuebid was alerted and explained of course). The purpose was not so much psychic, but as a defense to the penalty redouble. If LHO has a classic penalty XX, and if we are in trouble, the auction often passes to Opener, who may very well panic and rescue us. Even if he does not rescue, good things can happen.

 

There are obviously some problems to work out with this approach (doubler's "cue" is natural and weak, for example), and it is funny that the GCC (ACBL) might not require an alert (cannot remember what we determined at the time), but the theory, even if not a psychic but agreed as an exception, seemed to work rather well.

So you were not allowed to jump in a new suit to invite?

[kenrexford]

About six years ago, I played with a guy who like for the double to show either a typical takeout shape or a weak hand with a solid holding in the opened minor.  This was systemic, with the doubler allowed to pass the "forcing" cuebid (the cuebid was alerted and explained of course).  The purpose was not so much psychic, but as a defense to the penalty redouble.  If LHO has a classic penalty XX, and if we are in trouble, the auction often passes to Opener, who may very well panic and rescue us.  Even if he does not rescue, good things can happen.

 

There are obviously some problems to work out with this approach (doubler's "cue" is natural and weak, for example), and it is funny that the GCC (ACBL) might not require an alert (cannot remember what we determined at the time), but the theory, even if not a psychic but agreed as an exception, seemed to work rather well.

So you were not allowed to jump in a new suit to invite?

We did not need that as much, because we used Herbert Negatives. Most positive responses went through a simple bid of the suit without a jump. With a big hand that could stand a pass of the cuebid, we cuebid. With a sizeable hand that wanted to play in our suit even opposite the weak one-suiter, we jumped in that suit. With problem hands, we used a false negative (Herbert) and made waves if partner bid the cue (weak). There were many other agreements, including a two-way takeout structure (1NT was a takeout bid handling some hand types, including weak takeout and very strong takeouts, double included possibly strong balanced, various escape structures after the 1NT takeout, various two-way preempts opposite the 1NT takeout, etc.).

 

The point is that it worked very well, with apropriate agreements, and that the idea is a sound one to explore.

[han]

I think it is a poor idea. The double already shows such a variety of hands in modern bidding, I wouldn't want to put more hands into it, especially not hands that differ so much from the other hands.

 

I imagine that you can sort it out when the opponents are silent. But imagine that it goes (1C)-Dbl-(2S, weak)-.. and you hold a decent hand wth 5 hearts. Will you bid 3H, risking that partner is weak with clubs?

[kenrexford]

I think it is a poor idea. The double already shows such a variety of hands in modern bidding, I wouldn't want to put more hands into it, especially not hands that differ so much from the other hands.

 

I imagine that you can sort it out when the opponents are silent. But imagine that it goes (1C)-Dbl-(2S, weak)-.. and you hold a decent hand wth 5 hearts. Will you bid 3H, risking that partner is weak with clubs?

Yes, but this is the reason for the two-way takeouts. When you split takeouts into two bids, with a complete restructuring, it works out a lot better than if you just keep stacking new stuff onto the double.

 

One problem with doubles as they exist now is that they are already handling quite a bit of hand types. I mean, imagine opening 1♠ (the functional preempted effect of starting with a double of 1♠) to show (a.) 11+ three-suited with a very loose idea of "three-suited," or (b.) 19+ balanced, or (c.) a one-suited hand with about 17+, or (d.) maybe a minimum opening heart-diamond canape (ELC), or (e.) any other of a number of very strong hands. The bidding would be a mess.

 

Adding into that mess a weak possibility would create a much worse mess. However, if you extend the range for the balanced option to 15+ and then split all of the options between 1NT and double, things are not quite as bad. You can even add in a weak three-suiter, so long as your advancer techniques are fairly sophisticated, to handle all of these possibilities.

 

This takes me back to some fond memories. :P We used to call the 1NT overcall "RUNT," for "Really Unusual No Trump." As a joke, the double was called "Son of RUNT," from a particularly amusing instance of the bid.

[kenrexford]

The original story for the RUNT and Son-of-RUNT:

 

A good friend of mine was taught the two-way takeout structure, a modified version of one I learned from a friend from Croatia, where he learned it. The local friend dubbed it "RUNT," for Really Unusual No Trump.

 

In a swiss match. Room quiet. I overcalled 1NT, alerted and explained by DM:

 

"That's RUNT. Partner has either a weak takeout (5-11) with at least three cards in each of the other suits, or any strong hand with 19 to 23 HCP's." The opponents doubled, and I had to explain the very bizarre escape structure. As the room was quiet and my partner very loud, everyone in the room listened in.

 

Two hands later, I doubled their opening. Partner alerted. My LHO said:

 

"OK, I'll bite. What is that?"

 

Partner at the table dubber the double "So-of-RUNT" and explained:

 

"That's Son-of-RUNT. Partner has a very light takeout (0-4) with at least three in every suit, or 15-18 balanced, or 12-18 takeout, or 17-18 one or two-suited, or he could have any hand with 24-37 HCP's."

 

From WAAAAAAY across the room, someone yelled out:

 

"Of course that's what he has, you idiot!"

 

The entire room erupted.

 

Another one of the RUNT'ers added the idea of double also being possibly one-suited in the minor and weak.

 

BTW, I don't play that any more, but my old group finds that unfortunate. I have left the fold, apparently.

[Flame]

I wouldn't think that 1♣-X-XX-All Pass is really a very likely auction. In particular there's no reason advancer would pass (usually he will bid a suit at the one-level; he's actually pretty likely to have a five card suit to bid because he's apparently short in clubs). Also, even if the auction goes 1♣-X-XX-Pass, there's no reason opener will sit for it since he probably opened a weakish 3-4 card club suit. More likely might be 1♣-X-XX-2♣(only way to show values)-All Pass, but I wouldn't necessarily bet on this either.

 

Personally I've found that psyching takeout doubles usually doesn't work all that well, because partner is often eager to hang you. After all, unlike a simple overcall a takeout double supposedly shows opening values and some defensive strength.

Lets see i have 5 hcp so responder is likely to have 9+, im long in club so responder is likely to have short club and therefore likely to bid redouble.

As for partner he also likely to be short in clubs and yes might have a 5 card suit but he will also likely to have all suits and therefore is likely to pass. Opener with poor club suit is not suppose to take it out, on the contrary, having short club just make him happier to pass and catch us.

This is the logic that make me think its likely to end redouble p p p.

I agree that when it wont end this way i will get a poor result nd therefore its more a mp idea.

Anyway its just an idea that i thought about as a funny thing and wont try it unless i happend to be in a funny mood.

[ochinko]

What I am likely to hear from my partner if LHO passes is 2♣, meaning he isn't able to pick up a major, so I would have to do it. Then I'll pass 2♣, and while all the others are looking at me I'm going to check the paint job at the ceiling.

 

This is, of course, the best case scenario. As with any other psyche there are many more bad scenarios, and they are not enjoyable to contemplate.