Al_U_Card Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 [hv=d=n&v=n&n=sj63h8djt5ckq6532&s=sakhakq94dak97ca4]133|200|Scoring: MPopps silent thruout2♣ 2♦2♥ 3♣3NT all pass[/hv] 2♦ was 0-1 control. The 2♥ is either ♥ or the bigger balanced hand (25-27) to be shown by 2NT over the 2♠ relay. One question is, is 2♠ forced? (Or only a relay by a weak hand.) Since the 3♣ was not a 2nd negative (the 2♠ bid relay continuation would be part of that) how should the bidding continue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 3♣ is a silly bid. I'm assuming that the auction should have gone 2♣-P-3♣ initially, so 3♣ now seems weird. Further, without discussing what a Kokish override means, 3♣ is meaningless. It could show clubs, or it could show shortness, or it could show anything. 3NT was also a silly bid. Whatever nonsense partner's 3♣ was meant to be, you have a friggin' monster. Just bid out the hand, ignoring this weird 3♣ call, since it did not preempt your normal rebid of 3♦. Sure, you might have opted 2NT, but 3♦ was probably right anyway. After partner's next call, which will be equally meaningless, jump to 5NT. At least your hand will be bid properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 I don't play control responses, but if 3♣ denied a second negative, how in the world can south bid a simple 3NT... he as 27 hcp and these are not just any 27 hcp, no jacks and the only Queen is in a five card suit headed by AK. So whatever he should do, it should not be bid 3NT.. try 4NT, 3H, 4C, 5N, anything but 3NT. Sure, he probably thought he was showing the big balanced hand (since 2NT over 2S would have), but why in the world risk partner thinking it was hearts, a club misfit, and some "average" 2♣ opening hand? And note how much easier the auction is if EAST does bid 2♠.. when West bids 2NT, well, there you go.. .EAST will not give up short of 6♣ and 7NT might be bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 I guess that the most relevent question is about the nature of the 2S relay. If it is mandatory then the reponder hand becomes captain and drives to 7 ♣ (Off one with JTxx offside or 7 NT down unless the hand with Txxxx of H drops 2 hearts on the 2nd and 3rd ♣....6 was the limit of the hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Agree 2c=2d=2h=3c...now with this huge hand I would just kickback with 4D rkc and play 5clubs if partner denys Q of clubs. Sure 6clubs can go down when 3nt makes. If he shows KQ of C i will just end up in 6 C. me thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 I would try 6NT after 3♣, albeit with some trepidation. For all I know, it could be hopeless, though there's good odds it makes. Obviously, if 3♣ is unlimited, 3♦ is rather mandatory... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Since you guys are blaming South, how about North? South showed 25-27 HCP, (semi)balanced hand, how could North, with 6 decent clubs and 2 jacks (7 count), which gives 32-34 hcp, pass 3NT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 What?....What did south show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Since you guys are blaming South, how about North? South showed 25-27 HCP, (semi)balanced hand, how could North, with 6 decent clubs and 2 jacks (7 count), which gives 32-34 hcp, pass 3NT? It is wrong to blame the weak hand for passing, especially if the bid sounds like a sign-off :) The strong hand must raise to its responsibilities. Failure to do so under the "I've shown my hand" excuse is very common and simply wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Since you guys are blaming South, how about North? South showed 25-27 HCP, (semi)balanced hand, how could North, with 6 decent clubs and 2 jacks (7 count), which gives 32-34 hcp, pass 3NT? are you certain the strong hand showed 25-27? I mean, what does opener do with a hand with hearts and no club support but positional stoppers in the other suits? That is, while 2C-2D-2H-2S-2NT shows the strong balanced hand, does 2C-2D-2H-3x-3NT still show it? There is lies the problem. One partner thought yes, one thought no. IF they have no agreement, the answer is no by default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Couple of points from my perspective. First, I would urge a discontinuation of immediate control-showing responses. I used to play them and found them wanting in too many situations, namely when big hand has NT shape. Second, what is a postive suit response? There are two schools of thought here, one is a good suit (2 of the top 3) and the other is some number of controls (usually an Ace and a King). I believe the more valuable of the two is a good suit as a source of tricks, therefore would show an immediate positve club hand. Now to the question of the relay - I would say that responder is not required to relay, but this bid has to have some pretty precise parameters. What those parameters should be would be open to debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Since you guys are blaming South, how about North? South showed 25-27 HCP, (semi)balanced hand, how could North, with 6 decent clubs and 2 jacks (7 count), which gives 32-34 hcp, pass 3NT? It is wrong to blame the weak hand for passing, especially if the bid sounds like a sign-off ;) The strong hand must raise to its responsibilities. Failure to do so under the "I've shown my hand" excuse is very common and simply wrong. This post is 100% the opposite of correct bridge. I only say that as a general statement, not to pertain to the problem hand in which the strong hand was in my opinion far from showing his hand. He is far too good for 25-27 balanced even if he believes that is what he showed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 2C-3C-7N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 It is wrong to blame the weak hand for passing, especially if the bid sounds like a sign-off :) The strong hand must raise to its responsibilities. Failure to do so under the "I've shown my hand" excuse is very common and simply wrong. This post is 100% the opposite of correct bridge. I only say that as a general statement Dude, I don't recognize you authority to say what "correct bridge" is. Get back to where you came from and learn some manners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 You know reading my post later it really was rude and I can't believe I said that! Sorry :) Though the jab at my authority makes me think you wouldn't have minded so much if someone "good" had pointed out the error. Oh well whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 2C-3C-7N If KQxxxx is your minimum suit strenght requirement for a 3m reply, I agree 100%. When I play 2♣-3m as natural, my minimum is KJTxxx, so I'd have to go through a KC and trump Q ask before bidding 7NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 You know reading my post later it really was rude and I can't believe I said that! Sorry :) you got pwned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 You know reading my post later it really was rude and I can't believe I said that! Sorry :) Though the jab at my authority makes me think you wouldn't have minded so much if someone "good" had pointed out the error. Oh well whatever. Apologies accepted and I also apologize for having overreacted myself :) As for if someone "good" had written what you did, rest assured I would probably have reacted the same way. It is a fact of life that words often depend on who speaks them rather than what they mean, but I tend to ignore the source and concentrate on the meaning. I know.. I'm wierd, but you probably knew that already :) Cheers :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcLight Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 Is this hand good enough for a 2♣ - 3♣ response? Also, what consitutes the 2nd negative (i.e Bust) 2♣ - 2♦2♥ - 3♣ (since 3♣ wasnt bid earlier this is either a club control or a club suit, no?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 One question is, is 2♠ forced? (Or only a relay by a weak hand.) The non-helpful answer to your question is not to play a convention (the artificial 2H rebid here) without discussing the continuations. There are various possible continuations after 2H "Kokish", the one I have seen most often is to play 2NT/3C/3D as transfers, showing a good suit (usually KQJxxx or even possibly with the 10 as well) and 3H as showing more or less any 5-spades, as partner's most likely hand type is strong balanced (to right-side a spade contract). As opener could have a monster hand with hearts, you usually want to let opener continue describing their hand, not break yourself unless you have something special to show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 One question is, is 2♠ forced? (Or only a relay by a weak hand.) The non-helpful answer to your question is not to play a convention (the artificial 2H rebid here) without discussing the continuations. There are various possible continuations after 2H "Kokish", the one I have seen most often is to play 2NT/3C/3D as transfers, showing a good suit (usually KQJxxx or even possibly with the 10 as well) and 3H as showing more or less any 5-spades, as partner's most likely hand type is strong balanced (to right-side a spade contract). As opener could have a monster hand with hearts, you usually want to let opener continue describing their hand, not break yourself unless you have something special to show. It's not so much a matter of defining whether responder can break the relay or even what responder's bids mean. It's deciding how opener can still show his different possible hands over that. That was essentially the cause of the misunderstanding on the actual hand. It would be ok to play Kokish without discussing if breaking the relay is allowed, but then neither partner should break the relay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 I blame the 3♣ bid...if no one knows what breaking the relay means then dont break it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 Well, you can try that rule that says "any undiscussed bid is natural" :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 2C-3C-7NThis, to me, is the most sane auction. Life is too short to wait around for more than 2 of the top 3 to make a postive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 2♣-2♦ is systemic you can't argue with it. If horth had bid 2NT instead of 2♥ they would still have an easy way to 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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