Miss Fit

[DWM]

[hv=d=n&s=sxxhaqxxxxdqxcxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Bidding has gone

 

1D 1H

1S 2H

3D

 

Playing a fairly standard 2/1 system

[ArcLight]

Do you use New Minor Forcing?

If so, the 2H rebid shows a weak hand, with at least 5 hearts.

Pard probably has a stiff of void, as with a doubleton he could pass.

 

Whats pards shape? 6♦ - 4/5♠? 4=0=6=3 maybe?

 

Your diamond Queen is useful, the heart quuen is worth little, even the ace isn't worth much except in NT.

 

The other question is: Is this sequence forcing?

 

If using NMF, pard is bidding on in spite of your weakness.

 

♠ A K x x

♥

♦ A K J x x x

♣ A x x

 

can make slam,

 

 

♠ A K x x

♥

♦ A K J x x x

♣ x x x

 

is off the top 3 clubs, 4♦ is high enough

 

 

I'm not sure if its forcing, I assume not, and would pass. With the first hand, pard should have bid differently

[DWM]

We do not play NMF.

 

3D is not forcing, to force P would have to bid 3C, 4D etc

[whereagles]

4♦ seems pretty much in par with what I have and what I've shown so far.

 

This is an obvious overbid if pard has a void heart, but if he has extras and a singleton, there might still be a game on.

[Edmunte1]

Pass, hope that makes. Stretching for a game (3nt) is a +7 IMP to -5 IMP bet, and the odds for making are lower than this. Asuming a 30% chance for making 3nt the win/loss raport will be:

 

+7x 0.3 = +2.1

-5 x 0.7 = -3.5

[inquiry]

Try not to play partner for the perfect hand, he usually will not have it. Pass.

[Gerben42]

I pass also. The ♦Q is a good card, but not good enough to justify bidding on.

 

I prefer Miss World over Miss Fit B)

[Guest Jlall]

I would pass as well, doesn't sound like my heart holding is very good for partner.

[bid_em_up]

Pass.

 

Partner does not have a heart fit. He could not rebid 1N or 2N. With a doubleton heart, he should have passed 2H. He should be 4/6+ in his suits, and will either be stiff or void in hearts, making the heart Q worthless.

 

He does not have 5 spades, he would have rebid 2S over 2H.

 

He does not have "extras". He could have rebid 2S over 1H, or 2N over 2H if he did.

 

Why anyone would do anything but pass with this hand is beyond me....

[awm]

I don't think partner should bid here "just to correct the partscore." In fact even if partner holds a void in hearts there are many hands I could have where 2♥ is a better spot than 3♦ (my hand will often take zero tricks in a diamond contract).

 

So the 3♦ bid, while certainly not forcing, should show some mild extras. A minimum might be something like:

 

AKxx

x

AKJxxx

xx

 

and even this offers a bit of play for 5♦. Certainly the same hand with a third small club instead of the heart is also possible. However hands like this are also possibilities:

 

AKxx

x

AKJxxxx

x

 

AKQx

x

AKJxxx

xx

 

In general I think the sequence shows along the lines of 4♠, 6+♦, 0-1♥, and 15-17 hcp.

 

I'd bid 4♦. The diamond queen is a huge card and while the ♥Q is looking like waste paper, ♥AQxxxx is a much more useful holding than ♥KQxxxx. I think the chances of going down in 4♦ are fairly remote, whereas there are real chances of finding a good 5♦ contract.

[jdonn]

I don't think this is a misfit at all. I have the queen of partner's long suit, a doubleton in his second suit (can be much better than xxx), and an ace where I might not have. The overall fit seems average if not better to me. There is no particular reason to assume partner is void in hearts, he just has 4 spades and 6+ diamonds and 4162 feels like the most likely shape. His bidding also clearly shows extra values, the equivalent of 1♦ then 3♦, though of course he is welcome to reevaluate (either up or down) based on me rebidding hearts.

 

4♦ for me. Even though 1♦ 1♥ 3♦ 4♦ is forcing, it feels to me as though on this auction partner can pass (with a heart void seems the most likely time) since in this case I'm limited.

[Apollo81]

4♦

[kenrexford]

I'm torn between pass and 3NT, opting to bid game when the decision is close at IMP's.

 

My only reason for commenting is that I do not understand any other options. I have already announced a weak hand with rebiddable hearts. Why would 3NT show:

 

(a.) rebiddable hearts plus

(b.) a diamond fit worthy of additional action plus

(c.) a club stopper plus

(d.) a minimum?

 

That seems a tad much to expect. More likely, I'd expect the Ace of hearts, a key diamond card, and out. I would not expect 3NT to show a club stopper.

[jdonn]

I'm torn between pass and 3NT, opting to bid game when the decision is close at IMP's.

 

My only reason for commenting is that I do not understand any other options.  I have already announced a weak hand with rebiddable hearts.  Why would 3NT show:

 

(a.) rebiddable hearts plus

(b.) a diamond fit worthy of additional action plus

(c.) a club stopper plus

(d.) a minimum?

 

That seems a tad much to expect.  More likely, I'd expect the Ace of hearts, a key diamond card, and out.  I would not expect 3NT to show a club stopper.

a.) has already been shown. Why in the world would 3NT show b.) as you suggest rather than c.) (assuming a hand that is good enough to take another call, else pass)??

[pclayton]

I don't play 3♦ as constructive, so I don't expect pard to pass with something like: KJxx, void, AKJxxxx, xx.

 

Pass for me. If I wanted to try for game, it seems our most likely spot is 3N.

 

How on earth are you going to manufacture 11 tricks?

 

I think Adam's constructions are pretty strong for a 3♦ rebid.

[pclayton]

I'm torn between pass and 3NT, opting to bid game when the decision is close at IMP's.

 

My only reason for commenting is that I do not understand any other options. I have already announced a weak hand with rebiddable hearts. Why would 3NT show:

 

(a.) rebiddable hearts plus

(b.) a diamond fit worthy of additional action plus

(c.) a club stopper plus

(d.) a minimum?

 

That seems a tad much to expect. More likely, I'd expect the Ace of hearts, a key diamond card, and out. I would not expect 3NT to show a club stopper.

I think this argument might win the post-mortem, but I'm having trouble connecting the actual hand and a 3N call.

 

Why couldn't I have something like: xx, QTxxxx, Qx, AQx? Am I really supposed to rebid 3♥?

[awm]

There are certainly hands like:

 

xx QJ9xxx Qx Kxx

 

xx AJTxxx xxx Kx

 

These sorts of hands suggest that 3NT might make by running the diamond suit.

 

xxx KQxxxx x KQx

 

This hand is just very maximum and it seems reasonable to take a shot at 3NT.

 

Bidding 3NT without a club stopper seems rather silly, since when 3NT does make it will often make only from partner's side. More reasonable than assuming 3NT "doesn't show clubs" might be to suggest that 3♠ by responder is "trying to reach 3NT without a club stopper" and doesn't seriously suggest spades. After all, the hand where "we might be able to make 3NT but can't stop clubs" is a lot more common than the hand where "we would like to preference to a 4-3 spade fit at the three-level."

[jdeegan]

:wacko: Pass. wtp?

[kenrexford]

This is an example of a hand where I suppose I'm thinking through the problem without remembering stylistic differences earlier in the auction.

 

I have for some years now used a jump shift to show a constructive six-bagger (8-11 maybe). 1...2, then, is very weak. With a poor heart suit, good clubs, and a diamond card, I'm probably bidding 1NT after 1♠ (something like xx-QJxxxx-Qx-KQx). With the same hand but no diamond card, I'm passing 3♦.

 

I also would not convert 2♥ after a simple 1♠ without one of two hands -- either absolute heart intolerance and excessive diamonds (maybe 4072?) or a diamond holding with serious NT interest, something like Axxx-x-HHxxxx-Ax might work. The idea is that languishing in 2♥ with a stiff more often to enable 3♦ to strongly encourage 3NT is a good idea at IMPs.

 

I like the idea of a transfer/waiting auction to gain right-siding of 3NT, and to ensure a stop/bolster in the unbid minor, something I would expect this after 1♣-1♥-1♠-2♥-3♣-3♦. I've just never discussed this with anyone so as to decide whether 3♥ or 3♠ would work better for this purpose.

 

Interesting problem.

[helene_t]

For me it depends why I didn't bid 2♥ over partner's opening. I voted pass since my falure to make a WJS showed just about the values I have.

 

If we don't play WJS, or if my hand is much too strong for a WJS, I would bid 4♦. I think Adam's hands are realistic. Partner showed a hand that is too strong for passing 2♥, i.e. at least 14 to 16 points depending on WJS style, and too to force to game, i.e. a maximum of 16 or 18 points.

[Guest Jlall]

Everyone is hoping for these really good prime hands from partner, what about QJxx --- AKJTxxx xx and the like? Partner has bid spades and diamonds and has very short hearts. We are 100 % to be receiving a club lead. There are long spades to get rid of, partner could easily be stretching to bid 3D with a heart void to avoid a ridiculous contract, and we only have 2 trumps and poorly located values. Bidding just seems too optimistic.

[jdonn]

Everyone is hoping for these really good prime hands from partner, what about QJxx --- AKJTxxx xx and the like? Partner has bid spades and diamonds and has very short hearts. We are 100 % to be receiving a club lead. There are long spades to get rid of, partner could easily be stretching to bid 3D with a heart void to avoid a ridiculous contract, and we only have 2 trumps and poorly located values. Bidding just seems too optimistic.

Justin your example is not valid. Partner shouldn't overbid by an ace just because he really dislikes hearts. The actual auction shows the same strength range as 1♦ p 1♥ p 3♦, except showing 4 spades along the way. What ever happened to getting out of the auction as soon as possible on a misfit?

 

Not that pass is ridiculous, it could easily work (especially because you are of course right a club is being led - but maybe that allows us to ruff 2 spades?), but partner can't have a hand as weak as that. It's true he might be a little less prime than people are hoping, but after all that's why I invite with 4♦ instead of just bidding 5♦.

[Guest Jlall]

The actual auction shows the same strength range as 1♦ p 1♥ p 3♦, except showing 4 spades along the way.

Yes we agree on that. 9 tricks is ok for 1D then 3D in my book, sorry I forgot we only have 11 points... lol.

 

Partner shouldn't overbid by an ace just because he really dislikes hearts.

 

That is not true. If you expect to not even make 2H you should go with a (small) overbid of 3D and just hope it works out. 5D-1 is the same as 2H-1. I can also prove this mathematically if you like. There are many situations where you take risks and make overbids to try and improve the contract, or improve the upside of your contract. A similar situation is when you bid 3N over 3 of a minor in some auctions when you don't even expect 3 of the minor to make, even if 3N will make only 10 % of the time you should still be bidding it. Any bid that increases your expectation is a good bid no matter how much of a distortion it might be. Personally I do not think bidding 3D with a great 7-4 is much of a distortion at all.

[kenrexford]

I'll re-agree with Justin, insofar as a 3♦ bid might be made on a wild 7-4 hand. However, his second point, that of bidding 3NT on a 10% chance when we do not expect three of gthe minor to make, has an implicit understanding that we bid 3NT at IMP's when in doubt. This seems like one of those situations. It would be great for a major call here, when diamonds is the focus, to be an artificial 3NT probe, simply asking partner to bid 3NT if plauisble. Then, when opener has the hot mess distributional hand, we play 4♦. Without that technique, we probably bid 3NT and hope and pray that one of us has a club stopper, or Opener converts on the hot mess hand.

 

BTW -- this problem is one reason for rebidding 1NT with six ugly hearts, a diamond card, and good clubs. With game potential in NT because of the diamond card, make a bid that encourages partner.

[jdonn]

Partner shouldn't overbid by an ace just because he really dislikes hearts.

 

That is not true. If you expect to not even make 2H you should go with a (small) overbid of 3D and just hope it works out. 5D-1 is the same as 2H-1. I can also prove this mathematically if you like. There are many situations where you take risks and make overbids to try and improve the contract, or improve the upside of your contract. A similar situation is when you bid 3N over 3 of a minor in some auctions when you don't even expect 3 of the minor to make, even if 3N will make only 10 % of the time you should still be bidding it. Any bid that increases your expectation is a good bid no matter how much of a distortion it might be. Personally I do not think bidding 3D with a great 7-4 is much of a distortion at all.

That is largely true, but for one thing you aren't improving the upside of your contract here (3♦ is not game). Also here you are raising the level if you try to improve the contract, so it would have to be at least 2 tricks better, which simply makes it a less likely thing to try. I don't see why this 7-4 is a "great" one, maybe it started out that way but surely partner rebidding your void puts a damper on things. Does your mathematical proof take into account that partner not only isn't barred, but might do things other than raise your awesome suit? Why can't he bid his hearts a 3rd time (you have shown extra values after all and he may have 7 hearts.) I don't think you could prove this thinking is superior in the long run (even if it really is) since how do you factor for things like partner passing on the original problem hand assuming you are stretching, then you miss game when you had your bids all along?

 

I guess all I can really say is if partner is taking a chance with an overbid to try and improve the contract that is his business, but I'm not going to fail to bid my hand because I'm worried about that.