What's going wrong in the auction?

[twcho]

[hv=d=e&v=b&w=sk42hqdakq4caqt54&e=sq76haj3dt972ckj9]266|100|Scoring: IMP

West East

　　Pass

1♣　2NT

3♦　3♥

3♠　3NT

4♣　5♣

Pass[/hv]

 

EW is using 2/1 system. How can they bid to the optimal contract which I presume to be 6♦?

[hrothgar]

Hard to fault any of the first three bids

 

1♣ or 2NT and 2NT look perfectly normal (assuming that ~11 balanced is your agreement for 2NT). Patterning out and showing extra strength via 3♦ is also fine.

 

Things get a bit strange after 3♥. It looks as if the the two players were on different wave lengths.

 

From my perspective, there are three reasonable ways to structure auction continuations

 

1. Cue bids set Diamonds as trump. A club raise sets clubs

2. Cue bids set Clubs as trumps. A Diamond raise sets Dimaonds

3. Cue bids are used to show/deny stoppers. The priary goal is exploring 3NT but you might be groping towards slam

 

I strongly prefer option 1. After 3♥ - 3♠, I'd cue 4♣

[zasanya]

1♣-1♦-3♦ .Responder should take charge here with cue bids or minorwood.

[kenrexford]

So many issues, so little time...

 

First, I strongly dislike the "Down One 2NT Convention." If forced to respond with 11 HCP and 4333, I'd rather bid 1NT than 2NT, assuming a 14+ to 17 range, or even the more common 15-17.

 

A better start would seem to be 1♣-P-1♦-P-2♦, unless, of course, this 2♦ raise does not show classic reverse strength per agreements, which it may not.

 

In many respects, this auction is highly dependent upon which start to the auction the partnership uses, and what the unspecified ranges are.

 

If 1♣-P-2NT could be 11 HCP's, and a good 11 expected (maybe 11+ to 13?), then Opener has little cause for not bidding slam, IMO. 1NT assures either a nine-card club fit or a double minor fit, and 31+ to 33 seems fairly strong.

 

It would have been nice, though, for Responder to sometime show diamond support and preference.

[Guest Jlall]

Love the auction through 3S, all of those bids seem clear. Over 3S east has a pretty decent hand, but the HJ is not pulling any weight for 6m and the diamonds are bad. 3N is ok. Over 3N west might try 4N, and east might try 6D, or west might pass 3N. It's hard. Over the actual 4C east should probably bid 4D.

 

I really hate the idea of bidding 1D over 1C with this hand.

[Guest Jlall]

If 1♣-P-2NT could be 11 HCP's, and a good 11 expected (maybe 11+ to 13?),

Most people don't pass as dealer with 13...

[kenrexford]

If 1♣-P-2NT could be 11 HCP's, and a good 11 expected (maybe 11+ to 13?),

Most people don't pass as dealer with 13...

I'm not sure I follow. My concern was with the 2NT call perhaps being 11. I'm of the school where I rarely pass as dealer with 11. 22-point 2NT contracts are not so fun.

 

Perhaps you are agreeing with me by the comment that most people won't pass as dealer with 13. As I would expect a 1♣ opening by dealer to show about 11 to a bad 14 if balanced, then most 13-counts classify as maximums and hence would raise the 2NT call and "not pass" as you suggest.

[mikeh]

If 1♣-P-2NT could be 11 HCP's, and a good 11 expected (maybe 11+ to 13?),

Most people don't pass as dealer with 13...

I'm not sure I follow. My concern was with the 2NT call perhaps being 11. I'm of the school where I rarely pass as dealer with 11. 22-point 2NT contracts are not so fun.

 

Perhaps you are agreeing with me by the comment that most people won't pass as dealer with 13. As I would expect a 1♣ opening by dealer to show about 11 to a bad 14 if balanced, then most 13-counts classify as maximums and hence would raise the 2NT call and "not pass" as you suggest.

he was pointing out that requiring 13 hcp for the 2N bid here was a little limiting, because the 2N bidder had passed originally. Thus, unless he was Mike777, the odds are pretty good that 2N did not show 13.

[zasanya]

I really hate the idea of bidding 1D over 1C with this hand.

Why?

[Guest Jlall]

I really hate the idea of bidding 1D over 1C with this hand.

Why?

You're 4333 with a minor of 4 small and positional values. This hand is about NT not diamonds.

[jdonn]

I think the auction was correct through 3NT. Over that west should bid 4NT after which I think east has a clear acceptance, since his hearts are A not K. With this shape in the minors I might normally bid 5NT next to let west pick, but since the diamonds are so bad I would just go 6♣ at that point.

 

It seems the 4♣ bid should show 3046 shape so I don't blame east for not cuebidding over that with nothing in diamonds and half his hand not working. If west really had Kxx - AKQx AQTxxx he would bid 6♣ then, since east can't have a TON in hearts or he would bid 4NT over 4♣.

 

Agree with Justin, 1♦ over 1♣ would just be stupid. It tells absolutely nothing useful about east's hand. The desire to bid 1NT rather than 2NT, though I don't agree there either, is much more understandable.

[1eyedjack]

If you respond 1D on this hand, however pukey, it frees up 2N response for possibly(?) more useful alternative use.

 

No small proportion of the population respond 1D exceptionally on a 3 card suit. I would not expect opener to get too excited about Diamonds just because of the 1D response. Time enough to get excited about them later, and time enough to confirm the no-trumpy nature of responder's hand next time around.

 

Swap responder's Diamonds with a major and everyone would be responding on the 4 card suit without a qualm in the world.

 

I gave up on the non-forcing balanced invitational 2N response many years ago. But not being a system freak personally I was just following the flock of sheep. If everyone at the top of the game is shifting back then I had better take note and do likewise, I guess.

[jdonn]

Swap responder's Diamonds with a major and everyone would be responding on the 4 card suit without a qualm in the world.

Actually that is not true at all. The trend these days is more and more toward responding in the appropriate notrump bid with hands like this hand but diamonds switched with one of the majors, like T9xx AJx Qxx KJx. It's all about showing the nature of your hand (in one bid to boot) instead of blindly following a rule.

[helene_t]

It looks like East was ashamed of having bid 2NT and therefore refused to cooperate towards slam. If that's the case, he'd better start with 1NT.

 

It's true that East's hand is unsuited for slam, but he allready expressed that by bidding 3NT. After 4♣ he must do something constructive. 4♦ as showing preference for diamonds is probably best. He can also cue 4♥, intendibng to correct the final contract 5/6♣ to ♦. If he really must sign off, 4NT is better than 5♣ IMHO.

 

This is all easier in the post-mortem than at the table. In practice, I would probably have copied the auction, whether I were East or West.

[twcho]

I think the auction was correct through 3NT. Over that west should bid 4NT after which I think east has a clear acceptance, since his hearts are A not K. With this shape in the minors I might normally bid 5NT next to let west pick, but since the diamonds are so bad I would just go 6♣ at that point.

 

6♣ is not a successful contract as ♥K is offside.

[whereagles]

1♣-1♦-3♦ .Responder should take charge here with cue bids or minorwood.

Responder shouldn't take charge because he is far weaker than opener.

 

Bidding is ok until last bid, which should not be 5♣ but 6♣ or 6♦. Responder could have also bid 4♦ over 3♦, which would have made opener's task quite easier.

[mike777]

Edit: I see east is dealer and I have an easy 1D opener, tough to stay out of slam now. :)

 

 

I think this hand is tough, always a bit tough to bid minor suit slams. Assuming junky openings, after:

1c=1nt(8-11)

2d=3d(slam try, 10-11)

4c(3s?)=? It gets tougher from here, since there is some concern about spades if p cues 4c first and not 3s? and I play kickback.

 

1) I can bid 4H kickback and hope spades are under control

2) I can bid 4nt showing a heart cuebid.

3) other?

 

edit: I guess partner just bid 4h kickback himself over my 3d slam try, so much for cuebidding if we have west open the bidding. :)

[jdonn]

I think the auction was correct through 3NT. Over that west should bid 4NT after which I think east has a clear acceptance, since his hearts are A not K. With this shape in the minors I might normally bid 5NT next to let west pick, but since the diamonds are so bad I would just go 6♣ at that point.

 

6♣ is not a successful contract as ♥K is offside.

Yeah maybe I should bid 5NT after all instead of 6♣, I was just being honest to what I think the best bid is at each point. If west had the jack of spades also then 6♣ would be better, but not that much better.

[Apollo81]

Love the auction through 3S, all of those bids seem clear. Over 3S east has a pretty decent hand, but the HJ is not pulling any weight for 6m and the diamonds are bad. 3N is ok. Over 3N west might try 4N, and east might try 6D, or west might pass 3N. It's hard. Over the actual 4C east should probably bid 4D.

 

I really hate the idea of bidding 1D over 1C with this hand.

I agree with this except I think that there is no way East can stop short of slam once West bids 4♣.

[mike777]

:) would anyone really bid one d over one club on this hand?

 

At least I would open one diamond in first seat with this piece of ...... if not playing sound openings.

[kenrexford]

If 1♣-P-2NT could be 11 HCP's, and a good 11 expected (maybe 11+ to 13?),

Most people don't pass as dealer with 13...

I'm not sure I follow. My concern was with the 2NT call perhaps being 11. I'm of the school where I rarely pass as dealer with 11. 22-point 2NT contracts are not so fun.

 

Perhaps you are agreeing with me by the comment that most people won't pass as dealer with 13. As I would expect a 1♣ opening by dealer to show about 11 to a bad 14 if balanced, then most 13-counts classify as maximums and hence would raise the 2NT call and "not pass" as you suggest.

he was pointing out that requiring 13 hcp for the 2N bid here was a little limiting, because the 2N bidder had passed originally. Thus, unless he was Mike777, the odds are pretty good that 2N did not show 13.

That's even worse then. (I missed the initial pass.)

 

A third-seat 1♣ opening could easily be something like xxx-xxx-xxx-AKJx, at least as I like. If this thinking is used, then this strongly stands for why you would prefer 1♦ to 2NT (or 1NT over 2NT, for that matter).

 

This brings up an interesting point. To my thinking, assuming that a minor opening in third-seat can be lead-directional and quite light, it seems that a jump to 2NT is nearly impossible if it merely shows a balanced hand. Any hand worthy of such a jump would have been opened, and even then I'd be wary of punishing partner for a lead-director opening.

 

The only logical conclusion for me, then, is that P-P-1♣-P-2NT should be fit-showing, with an expectation of 5332 pattern (five clubs). With 5332 and an 11-count, I'd open. So, 2NT should be 9-10 HCP's with five-card support and balanced, a constructive raise of sorts.

 

2NT as "almost an opener" and simply balanced is way outside my way of thinking. With some 4333 hand and 10-11, I'm bidding a simple 1NT, planning to bid 2NT only if partner bids again (thereby giving room for the 15-16 count I need).

[Fluffy]

I like every bid except 3NT and last pass

 

3NT is too weak, when hand is good.

 

pass is lack of confidence on this partnership, 3♥ set ♦ as trumps, so 5♣ is a cuebid.

[HeartA]

Usually I dislike 2N response, though I can accept it.

 

3H is surely cuebid, but not clear about which minor to support. After pd's 3S, 3NT is a terrible call, I would say. In my opinion, Eaest's bids become worse and worse: The worst bid is 5C (should be 4D), the second worst is 3NT, followed by 3H (ambiguous, prefer 4D), and 2NT (I personally don't respond 2NT with one exception: 3=3=3=4 over 1D opening).

[zasanya]

1♣-1♦-3♦ .Responder should take charge here with cue bids or minorwood.

Responder shouldn't take charge because he is far weaker than opener.

Opener has defined his strength .It is responders turn to show his extras especially ♣ support. He knows hands fit well and have at least 29 points so why shouldnt he take control?

Cannot understand the aversion to bid natural 1♦ showing 6+ hcp 4+ cards.Why not allow opener to describe his hand keeping the bidding space? Surely Nt can be bid later?

[kenberg]

Maybe over the 3N W should bid 4D? Reason: After 1C-2N I assume that 3C is passable (shape, too little value for 3N?). Therefore E has to worry that the 3D was a bit made up, maybe with six clubs and three diamonds, simply making sure the hand wasn't passed. It appears that W has pretty much decided to go to slam (well, he passed 5C so maybe not) and is simply checking out which minor to bid it in. I think 4D will get him the information he needs.

 

This assumes that trumps have not already been implicitly set be the time 3N was bid. If they have been set it appears that the players are not aware of this.