Missed really good slam, you be the judge

[sathyab]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=saj9ha2d74ckj9632&s=skq432hj964d5caq7]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

IMP tournament on-line, decent players, but not an established partnership, playing 2/1.

 

Bidding went:

 

S W N E

 

1s p 2c 2d

 

2h p 2s p

 

3c p 3h p

 

4s p p p

 

Spades were 3-2, clubs were 3-1, producing 12 easy tricks.

 

North said "A Diamond control is what I was looking for deperately. Your 4s bid in a forcing acution should definitley deny that".

 

South replied "I was bidding my pattern, so you should know I had a stiff Diamond; you could easily have only 4 clubs"

 

North countered with "I don't understand the 4s bid. But regardless, If you had AQ of clubs and two little Diamonds you might have or may be ought to have bid 4s".

 

South says "No I wouldn't have bid it that way then".

 

North adds further "You know I had a non-minimum when I bid clubs, supported spades and cue-bid hearts; even if I had only 5 clubs, 6c rolls home as long as spades break 3-2 even when I'm missing the Jack".

[mike777]

If you are making me open this hand, then at least let me rebid 3clubs over 2d by rho, please. :) clubs not promising extras, can still be junky 11 hcp.

 

I should still get to slam if you let pass in first seat. :) Then I can bid the heck out of this max passed hand. :)

[Guest Jlall]

4S sucks.

[1eyedjack]

4S sucks.

Not saying it doesn't suck, but out of interest, what sort of hand would you expect of 4S, given the preceding auction?

[kenrexford]

1♠: Good start

2♣: Good response, no matter what parameters you have for a 2♣ call.

2♥: Good second bid

2♠: Makes sense -- show support with support. Of course, many of y'all play that 2♠ might just be a doubleton, a waiting bid, I think. So, maybe 2♠ shows support, or maybe not.

3♣: This works for all styles. However, knowing the style dictates what Responder will expect.

 

If 2♠ was a waiting bid, with two-card support, then 3♣ presumably completes pattern without agreeing spades. It might also logically be a COV doubleton, with absolutely no help in diamonds (maybe 5422 with a strong doubleton club?).

 

If 2♠ established spade support, but pattern is King, then 3♣ seems to show the 5413 pattern but says nothing about the strength of the hand (six loser with shortness in the right place) nor of the wildly useful club contribution.

 

If 2♠ established spade support, and if 2NT denies good trumps (gratuitous plug), then 3♣ shows at least the club Queen so far, nothing about shape.

 

If 2♠ established spade support, and if Aces-first is used, and if shape is secondary or not completed, then Opener has the Ace.

 

So, 3♣ is right, no matter what that means.

 

Back to Responder and 3♥.

 

If 2♠ did not establish spades as assuredly trumps, then perhaps Responder should now bid 3♠ to clear that up. However, maybe a cue does that. I have no familiarity with the clarification stage for the "could be waiting" theory.

 

If 2♠ did establish trumps, and if 3♣ was a pattern bid, then 3♥ is right whether we are using Italian cues or Aces-first cues. However, only in the first case is the diamond hole identified.

 

If 2♠ set trumps, and if 3♣ showed good trumps and a club card, then 3♥ is right, as showing a heart control but no diamond control.

 

Finally, if Opener used Aces-first cuebidding without any shape bids, then 3♥ is right.

 

So, 3♥ is right under any theory except if 2♠ did not guarantee a fit AND 3♥ carries forward the mystery. The 3♥ call sometimes sends a message about the diamond hole, but sometimes that hole has already been covered by the pattern bidding (if pattern bidding was used by Opener).

 

Now to the 4♠ call.

 

If 2♠ did not establish a fit, and if 3♥ did not either, then 4♣ seems wiser. But, again, I'm in uncartered and unknown waters with this theory. If 3♥ made 2♠ no longer ambiguous, but clarified the fit, it seems that Opener should emphasize his great club contribution, as he only showed xxx before.

 

If 2♠ established a fit, and 3♣ was pattern, again Opener should clarify the A-Q nature of his three clubs.

 

If 2♠ established a fit, and if aces-first is used without pattern bidding, then I'm not sure what Opener does next -- again in unknown waters.

 

If 2♠ showed a fit, and 3♣ showed good trumps with a club card, and then if 3♥ isoltaed the diamond menace and showed a heart control, then Opener seems to have a clear call of 4♣, showing the diamond control by inference, having already shown two top trumps, now showing a second top club, and inferring by bypass of 3NT that he has nothing to contribute in hearts (hence, describing his hand completely, for all necessary purposes).

 

Whew.

 

General observation -- guessing how someone else bids in these auctions is extremely difficult. It would be good for people to at least agree on a general school of thought as to slam auctions. However, even stumble bunnies would not have bid 4♠ with Opener's hand.

[mikeh]

I really don't like 3♥: it is how I would bid with Ax KQx xxx KJxxx

 

It cannot be a cuebid after the 2♦ interference, where N has no good, cheap stall when he may well need one.

 

3♠ over 3♣ sets trump and is forward going (no 4♠ over 2♥ or 3♣)

 

Now, trump finally set, S cues 4♣, hears slam cooperation 4♥ and can keycard.

 

Cue bidding when trump are logically not yet agreed was a disease that afflicted the top US players in the 1950s... Sonny Moyse used to rant about it. Too bad it is still around, altho not at the higher levels anymore.

[Guest Jlall]

I really don't like 3♥: it is how I would bid with Ax KQx xxx KJxxx

Can't you just bid 3D with this when they've bid 2D?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2S by North maybe just a simple preference,

i.e. the fit was not promised. This is a matter

of partnership agreement, although 4S also seems

to say, that 2S promised fit.

 

3C certainly showed a 5-4-1-3 pattern, i.e.

North argument about the missing diamond

control was rubbish.

Instead of 3H, I would prefer 3S or 4C (North

knows about the 6-3 fit), either bid would set

trumps.

 

After 3H, what should South bid, he has to limit

his hand, 4D would promise more.

 

Overall, I dont like Norths bidding.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[1eyedjack]

Everthing would seem to be on track as long as opener doesnt get stuck in fast arrival mode opposite an unlimited responder. The 4S bid is the killer. Would still be interested to know what 4S should show in that auction. Has to be something specific, whether fast arrival or extras in some way.

[Codo]

I personally agree 100 % with north but Ken got it right: There are at least three different ways to understand the bidding, so South thoughts had been absolute reasonable too. Just bad luck in a non established partnership.

[skjaeran]

In my methods 2♠ shows 3c support.

But nevertheless, 3♥ should clear things up.

As Justin said, you can bid 3♦ with Ax KQx xxx KJxxx.

 

I agree that the south hand is minimum with regard to hcp strenght.

But with a partner cooperating for slam, you've got a monster hand.

Good trumps, singleton ♦ and strong support for responders suit.

 

4♣ is thus mandatory.

[Apollo81]

We can second guess 4♠ all day long but South has bid his pattern and has 0 extras. I dont blame him.

 

Come on North...give pard KQxxx xxxx x Axx and 6s has play....I would probably bid 5♠ over 4♠ with that hand.

[ArcLight]

Playing Mike Lawrnece and Max hardy Style 2/1, the 2♠ bid confirms 3 trump support. Its not a waiting bid, and not 2 spades. Its 3. With 4+ you would probably make a splinter or J2NT response.

 

Declarer had a minimum, but responder4 was unlimited. In 2/1 its not uncommon for responder to have a bigger hand than opener.

Furthermore, opener has the AQx in responders (probable) 5+ card suit.

There are potentially 5 spade, 5 club, and 1 heart tricks. That assumes responder has the ♥A, ♣K, and some ♠ help. Thats not asking too much given pard has made a 2/1, and there is room to explore.

 

It would have cost nothing to bid 4♦, instead of 4♠.

 

4♠ denied a diamond control. Responder seeing 2♦ losers passed.

 

 

It doesnt matter if North has the rest of the deck, once south denied a ♦ control, you could be off the first 2 tricks, and the opps WILL lead ♦.

 

100% blame to opener.

[mike777]

I think these blaming North comments are funny. I disagreed with every south bid. :(

[1eyedjack]

not my system so only asking but what would 3♠ rebid by N be over 2♥? Splinter agreeing ♥?

[ArcLight]

1♠ - 1NT

2♥ - 3♠

 

Shows a Delayed Limit raise. 10-12 support points and 3 spades.

Its far more common than the splinter situation.

 

Having a singleton in pards first suit is not a good thing.

 

With 4 card ♥ support you would bid 3 or 4♥. You would not have a way of showing the spade stiff. Unelss you have some special artificial bids ready.

[pclayton]

I think this is a tougher hand than what everyone is letting on. The 6th club is what makes slam a good spot. Without it its hopeless.

 

I can see 1S - 2C - (2D) -3C - 3S - 4C - 4H - South could take charge with the diamond control but its not easy.

[1eyedjack]

1♠ - 1NT

2♥ - 3♠

 

Shows a Delayed Limit raise. 10-12 support points and 3 spades.

Its far more common than the splinter situation.

 

Having a singleton in pards first suit is not a good thing.

 

With 4 card ♥ support you would bid 3 or 4♥. You would not have a way of showing the spade stiff. Unelss you have some special artificial bids ready.

I assume this is an attempt to answer my query in the post immediately preceding.

If so, it does not answer the question, because while I totally agree with the analysis of the meaning of 3♠ in the auction above, no-one bid 1NT in the auction to which my query relates. The auction was

1♠ - 2♣ (GF)

2♥ - ??

My query was to distinguish 2♠ and 3♠ by responder in this position.

 

I suggested (it not being a system that I know anything about) that 3♠ might be a singleton in ♠ in support of ♥, as a possible explanation for why North bid 2♠ rather than 3♠ at this juncture. But that was just speculation on my part.

 

You raise an interesting point, though, about splintering in one of partner's suits. A shortage in partner's suit usually turns out to be a liability, for sure, and the total value of the hand may be devalued as a result. But on the other hand, if you HAVE a shortage in partner's side suit AND compensating strength that justifies the interest, I see no harm in showing it. Occasionally partner's side suit (be it his first bid suit or later) will not be full of intermediates, and if he has say Axxxx, the splinter will be just what he wants to hear.

[Fluffy]

bridge is not that literal, 3♣ doesn't mean you have 3 clubs.

 

4♠ is wrong.

[kenrexford]

not my system so only asking but what would 3♠ rebid by N be over 2♥? Splinter agreeing ♥?

The way I play, 3♠ after 2♥ would be a splinter agreeing hearts. I'm not sure that this is common, though. Further, my 3♠ splinter would be limited in hand-type to a stiff spade (not void), three of the top four clubs (trick source), and two of the top three hearts (good trumps), with no diamond control (at best the Queen).

 

The hand sought is something like ♠Axxxx ♥Hxxx ♦x ♣Hxx.

 

1♠-P-2♣-2♦

2♥-P-4♠ is yet another strange jump. For me, this shows a club trick source, good trumps, but no red control. This is contrasted with 4♣, which would show essentially the same thing, but heart support instead and no spade control.

[kenrexford]

I think this is a tougher hand than what everyone is letting on. The 6th club is what makes slam a good spot. Without it its hopeless.

 

I can see 1S - 2C - (2D) -3C - 3S - 4C - 4H - South could take charge with the diamond control but its not easy.

One hand does not prove a point, but...

 

This is a good example of an auction where pattern bidding is less useful than cuebidding. If one accepts 2♠ as setting trumps (a particularly good idea when a cuebid of their suit is an option when undecided after 2♥), pattern bidding allows showing the stiff diamond but muddies the waters as to the quality of the club honor contribution.

 

In contrast, consider:

 

1♠-P-2♣-2♦

2♥-P-2♠(trumps set)-P-

3♣(bypass 2NT -- good trumps; one of top three clubs)-P-3♥(needs diamond control, heart control)-P-

4♣(no third spade honor, not serious -- poor hearts, second top club honor, diamond control)

 

Notice how nicely this auction progresses. Responder knows Opener's hand nearly exactly, and completely as far as relevant questions are concerned. One unknown is whether Opener has a completely unnecessary third club (a pip); pattern is irrelevant (diamond King works as well as a stiff); as a bonus, Responder knows that the spades are solid between them before even using RKCB.

 

Slam is quite easily bid. In fact, Responder could confidently bid 6♠ without even using RKCB, except for the problem that Opener might have the diamond Ace or a diamond void. As either would suggest serious interest, however, RKCB is probably useless delay of a completed auction.

[mike777]

I am a bit surprised by so many if not all prefering to rebid 2h on jxxx and not rebid 3clubs. Perhaps 3clubs in their style promises more.

 

I would prefer to pass this hand in first seat, if I need to play that. :)

[pclayton]

I am a bit surprised by so many if not all prefering to rebid 2h on jxxx and not rebid 3clubs. Perhaps 3clubs in their style promises more.

 

I would prefer to pass this hand in first seat, if I need to play that. :)

Agree. 2♥ is cheap, but 3♣ is more descriptive.

[Guest Jlall]

I am a bit surprised by so many if not all prefering to rebid 2h on jxxx and not rebid 3clubs. Perhaps 3clubs in their style promises more.

 

I would prefer to pass this hand in first seat, if I need to play that. :(

Agree. 2♥ is cheap, but 3♣ is more descriptive.

Why? When you bid 2H and then 3C isn't that the best description? Doesn't raising clubs generally show 4 (thus making it a misdescription)? And can't raising clubs just cause you to easily miss a 4-4 heart fit?

[kenrexford]

The rebid of 2♥ has multiple benefits.

 

It is the only route to a 4-4 heart fit possibility.

 

As a bid below 2♠, it allows those of us who would have 2♠ agree spades to agree spades at the two-level.

 

It allows true pattern to be established in many events.

 

3♣ now tends to show a fourth club in many auctions.