what do you bid ?

[arigun]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sak642hajdj32ckt8]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

RHO opened 3♥. Your turn...

[helene_t]

3♠, wtp. Pass, 3NT or double could be right of course but I have no second thoughts.

[Fluffy]

double for me.

[Codo]

IF my pd has that hand and bid X, 3 NT or 3 Spade I will say: Well bid.

 

It is a guess, I would prefer 3 Spades, but can live with the other bids too.

[dake50]

Partner with his 6hcp passes, but 10 bids on: 4S fit; 4m 5-suit;

3NT with only one stop doubleton is way too likely to fail.

Double way too likely to miss S 5-3.

[Apollo81]

3♠

[mikeh]

close between 3♠ and 3N, with double belonging on a different, and lesser, planet. I tend to bid 3N on these hands, but recognize that it could be very wrong (as could anything, of course)

[pbleighton]

3S is a little better than 3NT, both are fine.

 

I don't understand double.

 

Peter

[whereagles]

What a headache.. the only thing I'm certain of is it must be right to act.

[kenrexford]

This type of problem seems to be a partnership issue more than anything. If partner has a strong preference for what to do with these hands, I'm OK with his choice. If not, then I'll probably cater my call to his advancing style.

 

For instance, if partner has a tendency/willingness to convert 3♠ to 3NT when it seems right, even without a stopper, then I'll bid 3♠. If not, then I'll bid 3NT. I might double if partner will convert a double to 3NT on feel, especially if partner will bid 3♠ with a junk hand and three small spades. Just some examples of my thinking here.

[SoTired]

3S - for me... 3N close second... X not considered. I prefer to have Axx of preemptive suit so that I can hold up successfully. If you bid 3S, you lose 3N, but the odds are good that partner has spade support

[bid_em_up]

close between 3♠ and 3N, with double belonging on a different, and lesser, planet. I tend to bid 3N on these hands, but recognize that it could be very wrong (as could anything, of course)

I'm really surprised by this, usually you are quite sensible. :P

 

I suspect if you consider it a little deeper, you might come to realize that double has to be the most flexible and the best call on the hand, at IMP's.

 

Why?

 

1) The scoring is IMP's, I really don't have to play in a major suit to do ok on the board. We should attempt to find our best fit. Bidding 3S or 3N directly, does not involve partner in this decision. In addition to having spades, I also have a fit with either minor, so lets try to find out what partners hand really is, instead of insisting on spades or NT with our first bid.

2) We can be reasonably certain that partner is not leaving the double in. If he does, we are still quite happy.

3) We can be reasonably certain that partner cannot bid 3N on his own. Playing 3N only being able to hold up once may not be such a great idea (although I prefer the choice of 3N to 3S).

4) If partner can bid 3N by some odd miracle, we are quite content. Not only that, we are better placed, since an opening heart lead lead will be going into his hand, and not thru it. And any non-heart lead by RHO may well give us the tempo required to make 3N.

5) It is quite likely that if I can indeed make 3N, that 5 of minor is safer, especially from the other side of the table.

6) Partner may well have spades and bid them on their own.

7) Partner just as easily could have a stiff or doubleton spade and a 5 or 6 card minor, where 4/5 of minor is cold, but 3S/4S goes down.

8) It is unlikely that we will ever find the minor fit, if we just bid 3S or 3N.

9) Partner probably will not take us off of 3S on a holding such as: xx xx KQxx AQxxx (maybe he should, but many wouldn't). Note on this holding we probably only make 3S, but 5C is certainly reasonable. Partner may also raise us to an unmakeable 4S on this holding.

10) Good partners bid 3S on 3-3-4-3 holdings and 3-2-4-4 holdings when weak. :)

11) Experience has proven to me that X is the best call. It goes against everything that one is ever taught about bidding in these situations. I fought this for years with my current regular partner. The results have proven (to me) that doubling has to be best and it is practically automatic now. And it works.

 

At matchpoints, the problem is tougher. If you double, you will likely bypass the highest scoring game available (3N), since partner can be expected to bid 4 of a minor. In this scenario, 3N is mainly just a matchpoint call (as is 3S), and good partners recognize this when they fail.

[mikeh]

close between 3♠ and 3N, with double belonging on a different, and lesser, planet. I tend to bid 3N on these hands, but recognize that it could be very wrong (as could anything, of course)

I'm really surprised by this, usually you are quite sensible. :)

 

I suspect if you consider it a little deeper, you might come to realize that double has to be the most flexible and the best call on the hand, at IMP's.

 

 

7) Partner just as easily could have a stiff or doubleton spade and a 5 or 6 card minor, where 4/5 of minor is cold, but 3S/4S goes down.

8) It is unlikely that we will ever find the minor fit, if we just bid 3S or 3N.

9) Partner probably will not take us off of 3S on a holding such as: xx xx KQxx AQxxx (maybe he should, but many wouldn't). Note on this holding we probably only make 3S, but 5C is certainly reasonable. Partner may also raise us to an unmakeable 4S on this holding.

10) Good partners bid 3S on 3-3-4-3 holdings and 3-2-4-4 holdings when weak. :)

I am astounded by this as, usually, you are quite sensible :P (I think that we each define 'sensible' as meaning we agree... and that is too inflexible a definition)

 

We can all come up with hands to justify our choice. The hands you use to disparage 3♠ are fine. But, unless RHO is under the age of 30, and, even then, most of the time, a dummy of xx xx KQxx AQxxx will do very nicely in 3N more times than not: RHO needs either an unlikely 6 card ♥ suit or the ♦A.

 

And for every construction like that, where 5minor is superior, I offer you one such as xx xx Qxx AQxxxx. Now your flexible double takes you...... uh.... 4♣? Lose 10 if you make it. Lose 12 if you fail on a ♦ ruff and a late ♥ loser. Nice call... at least, it was flexible, which had better be your teammates's attitude as you explain why you doubled 3♥.

 

Finally, while I usually do not care for out-of-context aphorisms, preferring to think rather than quote, this may be a perfect place for application of Hamman's rule. As you have (sensibly) pointed out, if you don't bid 3N, you ain't getting there. Bidding the best game may be a scary choice and is certainly 'inflexible', but sometimes one just has to do it.

[bid_em_up]

Sorry, I guess I sort of implied the wrong thing.

 

It was this part of your statement: "with double belonging on a different, and lesser, planet" that surprised me.

 

While 3N may or may not work, X is clearly superior (to me) over 3S at IMP's, for the reasons listed and it surprised me that you consider it the last, and seemingly, "an out of this world choice".

 

I would have expected your choices to either be X or 3N, but never 3S.

[jdonn]

Sorry, I guess I sort of implied the wrong thing.

 

It was this part of your statement: "with double belonging on a different, and lesser, planet"  that surprised me.

 

While 3N may or may not work, X is clearly superior (to me) over 3S at IMP's, for the reasons listed and it surprised me that you consider it the last, and seemingly, "an out of this world choice".

 

I would have expected your choices to either be X or 3N, but never 3S.

3NT is much more of an imp bid than a MP bid. You are taking your chance at a game swing since it may be right and there is no other way to get there, but it could go down a lot which is a total disaster at MPs.

 

Your entire post about the double makes little sense to me. Several of the points you make seem to refute double if anything (about how miraculous it would be if partner passed or bid 3NT). Since when did the main goal of bidding over a preempt become selecting the choice most likely to increase the level to see which of our three card minors partner prefers when we have an unmentioned 5 card major and the opponent's suit stopped?

 

I would bid 3♠ without the heart jack but it convinces me to bid 3NT. It not only gives us another stopper when partner has as little as Txx, but often even when he has less than that. Partner 9xx, LHO stiff T for example. Even partner 432, LHO Q, RHO KT98765. I think 3♠ is fine though.

[han]

I'd probably go with 3NT, 3S second choice.

[Fluffy]

3NT is my third choice, do you think ♥J is worth anyting?

[Fluffy]

3NT is my third choice, do you think ♥J is worth anyting?

[mikeh]

3NT is my third choice, do you think ♥J is worth anyting?

While the ♥J is not a huge card, I once heard of a 3♥ opening on a 7 card suit with no side entry, so the possession of the J allows me to duck the first lead.

 

I also once heard of a partner tabling 10xx after a 3♥ opening on his left.

 

Heck, I once heard of a hand where we had 9 top tricks in 3N even with only 1♥ stopper!

[Fluffy]

Hehe, sorry, didn't mean that it was worth nothing, jsut that there is no huge difference from AJ and Ax, and I don't think many would bid 3NT with Ax. At least that's my feelings.

[jdonn]

Hehe, sorry, didn't mean that it was worth nothing, jsut that there is no huge difference from AJ and Ax, and I don't think many would bid 3NT with Ax. At least that's my feelings.

Look at my previous post. Having the heart jack dramatically increases the chances the suit will block for the opponents, aside from the added value it gives if partner holds Txx or Q or Qx or similar.

[Fluffy]

IMHO dramaticaly is saying too much given RHO opened on first position vulnerable, you are right it has a decent chance to help, but is it that much?

 

Even if ♥KQ are not on the normal hand, ♥J is worth no extra stopper if partner has 1 ♥ unless it is the Q

 

if he has 2 cards the same unless it is Qx

 

if he has 3, only if he has Kxx or 10xx (or xxx and a miracle stiff Q)

 

if he has void or 4, 3NT is not our top spot probably :)

[pclayton]

3♠ for me, and I don't think its close between that and x. Refuting Bid-em's points:

 

1) The scoring is IMP's, I really don't have to play in a major suit to do ok on the board.  We should attempt to find our best fit.  Bidding 3S or 3N directly, does not involve partner in this decision. In addition to having spades, I also have a fit with either minor, so lets try to find out what partners hand really is, instead of insisting on spades or NT with our first bid.

 

True, but 10 tricks are cheaper than 11, and we can't be ecstatic about it when pard bids 4 minor.

 

2) We can be reasonably certain that partner is not leaving the double in. If he does, we are still quite happy.

 

Possible, but doubtful with our A-J. Unless RHO really preempted on trash, you aren't getting to play 3♥ doubled.

 

3) We can be reasonably certain that partner cannot bid 3N on his own. Playing 3N only being able to hold up once may not be such a great idea (although I prefer the choice of 3N to 3S(......and)4) If partner can bid 3N by some odd miracle, we are quite content. Not only that, we are better placed, since an opening heart lead lead will be going into his hand, and not thru it.  And any non-heart lead by RHO may well give us the tempo required to make 3N.

 

Similar to the penalty pass argument, its very unlikely pard can bid 3N. But he's just as apt to bid 3N over a double than 3♠.

 

5) It is quite likely that if I can indeed make 3N, that 5 of minor is safer, especially from the other side of the table.

 

This I don't understand, but what does this have to do with the double vs 3♠ argument? If we make 3N its on a source of tricks, and its very likely that we have too many losers for 5 of a minor. I'd be curious in a reasonable construction where pard can bid 3N, but 5 of a minor is better. I think it requires us to be totally off one of the minors.

 

6) Partner may well have spades and bid them on their own.

 

Great, then we'll find our slam when I overcall in my AK-5th.

 

7) Partner just as easily could have a stiff or doubleton spade and a 5 or 6 card minor, where 4/5 of minor is cold, but 3S/4S goes down.

 

This is the best argument for double I think, especially against playing 3♠ exactly. Its very possible that pard has a very weak hand with a long minor where even 5 of a minor is better than 3♠.

 

8) It is unlikely that we will ever find the minor fit, if we just bid 3S or 3N.

 

Its also very unlikely we will find spades if we double.

 

9) Partner probably will not take us off of 3S on a holding such as: xx xx KQxx AQxxx  (maybe he should, but many wouldn't).  Note on this holding we probably only make 3S, but 5C is certainly reasonable.  Partner may also raise us to an unmakeable 4S on this holding. (and....) 10) Good partners bid 3S on 3-3-4-3 holdings and 3-2-4-4 holdings when weak.  :)

 

Keep that in mind when you are dealt a 3=1-5-4 and want to double 3♥.

 

11) Experience has proven to me that X is the best call.  It goes against everything that one is ever taught about bidding in these situations. I fought this for years with my current regular partner.  The results have proven (to me) that doubling has to be best and it is practically automatic now. And it works.

 

When I hear comments like this I tend to think that either you haven't had a representative set of hands in your experience, or that you have a selective memory and ignore the cases where you have missed the boat on a perfectly mundane 5-3 spade fit.

[awm]

An awful lot of this is a style issue. If you double, there are also some questions about the followups. Perhaps the relevent questions are:

 

(1) Say partner has a hand with a five-card minor and doubleton spade, in the 10-12 point range and no heart stopper. If you overcall 3♠, will he normally pass, bid 4♠, bid 3NT, or introduce his minor at the four-level? If you expect partner to normally pass or raise spades with this hand, that's a pretty good reason not to bid 3♠ in this auction. If you expect partner to normally bid 4-minor (or 3NT!) with this hand over 3♠, then bidding 3♠ looks a lot better.

 

(2) What is your plan after double and the likely 4m bid by partner? If your plan is to pass, then doubling seems like a bad idea. The more reasonable plan is to introduce spades at the four-level. Does this show a "flexible" hand like the one you have, or a spade one-suiter? If a spade one-suiter then I think double as an initial action is out. If a flexible hand, then the sequence guarantees you to find the best strain unless the best strain is NT at the cost of forcing you to play at the game level even when partner has garbage.

 

My usual agreements indicate that partner would normally introduce a 5-card minor (or even sometimes a 4-card club suit!) over 3♠ when holding 10-12 hcp or more and doubleton spade. I've found that in these auctions it is usually better to bid naturally than to raise on doubleton and hope. I also have the agreement that double followed by 4♠ is a flexible hand, but would prefer more values (and/or less in hearts) for that sequence. I prefer bidding 3♠ over double because I expect that: when we have a game, we will always get to the right game unless it's 3NT and when we have no game we will play 3♠ which is likely to be better than playing 4♠ or 5m. I also prefer 3♠ over 3NT (by a smaller margin) because I think the odds that one of 4♠, 5♣, or 5♦ is right (combined) slightly exceed the odds that 3NT is right, and also because I think 3♠ will be less of a slaughter than 3NT when in fact we have no game.