fourth suit forcing is that easy for b/i players

[jocdelevat]

Hi all

 

I had post before some hands where the conclusion of using fourth suit forcing convention was the best option.

I have to recognize that Im confuse a bit about the meanning of the fourth suit bid.

My partners are most intermediates and I had never try to use this convention when we team up because of the confusion that can creates.

I have to say that Im playing in a lot of indy tourneys and I saw that even higher level than b/i get confused when 4sf is used.

For exemple in last post auction goes:

1d pass 1h 1s

2c pass ? Now here is where I saw the confusion arrive. If I bid 2s how you interpret that :

1. asking pard for a stop in spades

2. having a stop in spades( if i have a stop in spades i don't need to bid 2s right I can bid 2nt however I saw this misunderstanding most on b/i even on few advanced. One point can be raise for 2s instead of 2nt is to let strong hand be declerer.)

3. limit raise in pard suit

4. ask pard to describe more his hand.

I would apreciate if someone can describe this convention for b/i like mikeh did for reverse.

 

Thank you in advance.

[goobers]

I think FSF is a great tool and not that hard to understand.

 

You can agree to play it as one round force (invitational+) or GF... style is up to you. Whatever you decide to play it as, responder's jump rebids should have the opposite meaning.

 

The auction you posted is slightly different, in my opinion, since it's a cuebid. I would probably interpret that as a GF, no matter what I had agreed to play with partner.

 

But back to FSF... I think it's fairly easy and not that hard for BI players to pick up (Hey, I did!) Opener just has to find the correct third bid that best describes his hand.

 

1. Delayed raise of partner's suit

 

This is VERY desirable. Say the auction goes

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H*

 

2H is completely artificial, showing inv+ or GF, whatever your agreements. FSF often expresses doubt about the best contract to play. If you have 3 spades, you should support partner now to let him know about it. Very often, responder has a 5 card spade suit and is wondering where to go.

 

2. Stopper in the 4th suit

 

Since the 4th suit bid is artificial and promises nothing in the suit, rebidding a NT promises a stopper.

 

3. Other natural bids

 

Say the auction has gone as above

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H*

 

Lacking the ability to do the above 2, or if you have no desire to declare NT, you probably have a natural rebid. If you have 6 diamonds and 4 clubs, rebid the diamonds. If you have 5-5, rebid clubs. Maybe you even have 4 hearts and will decide to "raise" hearts (remember, hearts have not truly been bid.)

 

Once in a while, you honestly have no good rebid, and then you just have to find the smallest lie.

 

Anyway, I'm sure players much stronger than myself can answer this question better, but I felt that it would help if I let you know that you don't have to be an expert to play FSF :P

[Finch]

FSF is a convention that it is difficult to get full value out of without a fair amount of discussion, not least because it is played differently by different people.

 

Maybe I'll try and write an essay when I have a bit more time.... but my reply to the other FSF thread tries to address this.

 

To answer your specific question, that isn't a normal FSF auction because the opponents have bid. However, fundamentally the meaning is the same: FSF asks partner "to describe his hand further". What that means can depend on context, and on the relative levels of bids (cheaper being better).

[mike777]

4sf auctions can often be a mess. Sometimes they work out easy and we breathe a sigh of relief. Live with it if you play 2/1. Just give partner a break and know you are both trying your best.

[mikeh]

FSF is a convention that it is difficult to get full value out of without a fair amount of discussion, not least because it is played differently by different people.

 

Maybe I'll try and write an essay when I have a bit more time.... but my reply to the other FSF thread tries to address this.

 

To answer your specific question, that isn't a normal FSF auction because the opponents have bid. However, fundamentally the meaning is the same: FSF asks partner "to describe his hand further". What that means can depend on context, and on the relative levels of bids (cheaper being better).

I think an essay would be a good thing. I wrote something on reverses, intended for B/Q s and therefore perhaps a bit more dogmatic than would be suitable for advanced players (plus, somewhat idiosyncratic since I can't claim to know everything about any subject... well, my wife would say that I routinely act as if I do... but that is an entirely different thread)

 

I hope Ben reads this: maybe we should have an entirely different section of the forum in which such essays are pinned.

 

I can see essays on 4SF, Two Way New Minor, Systems over 1N our own and the opps), Jacoby 2N methods, RKCB methods, etc. We have enough talent and knowledge amongst the posters than we could gradually assemble a pretty good set of essays.... heck in a few years, we could have a book!

[pbleighton]

I think Goobers' post is a good basic introduction. If you understand and stick to this, you may not be practicing "expert bidding", but you won't go far wrong.

 

Peter

[hrothgar]

I think Goobers' post is a good basic introduction.  If you understand and stick to this, you may not be practicing "expert bidding", but you won't go far wrong.

 

Peter

Here's a quick suggestion:

 

I very much agree that some type of collaborative authoring project would be a very valuable addition to the online bridge community. We've seen some really great content written over the years: the aforementioned article on reverses, Ben's essays on squeezes, you name it.

 

However, I don't think that the BBO forums are really an appropriate tool for this type of project. Forums are great for arguing and debate, but they don't have the indexing/search capability that one would want for a more permanent respository.

 

If folks wanted to do this (and I think it would be a great idea), I'd strongly recommend going with some kind of Wiki. Who knows... we might be able to convicne Fred and all that sponsoring a bridge wiki would further the expansion of BBO. Even if he didn't, we might be able to pool enough money to license some good software. (Worst comes to worst, we could do this as part of the official Wikipedia)

[goobers]

That's a great idea. A wiki sounds like a good tool to use, but I heard that the official wikipedia is going down by the end of this year... has anyone else heard the same?

 

I don't know if it was a rumor or I've just been misinformed, but it's definitely something to check first.

[bid_em_up]

Hi all

 

I had post before some hands where the conclusion of using fourth suit forcing convention was the best option.

I have to recognize that Im confuse a bit about the meanning of the fourth suit bid.

My partners are most intermediates and I had never try to use this convention when we team up because of the confusion that can creates.

I have to say that Im playing in a lot of indy tourneys and I saw that even higher level than b/i get confused when  4sf is used.

For exemple in last post auction goes:

1d pass 1h  1s

2c pass ?  Now here is where I saw the confusion arrive. If I bid 2s how you interpret that :

1. asking pard for a stop in spades

2. having a stop in spades( if i have a stop in spades i don't need to bid 2s right I can bid 2nt however I saw this misunderstanding most on b/i even on few advanced.  One point can be raise for 2s instead of 2nt is to let strong hand be declerer.)

3. limit raise  in pard suit

4. ask pard to describe more his hand.

I would apreciate if someone can describe this convention for b/i like mikeh did for reverse.

 

Thank you in advance.

In principle, 4SF applies wherever responder has no clear direct course of action and wants opener to further describe his hand. Forget the example auction you have given for a moment (which is not a 4SF auction, but only a "forcing" auction, since you have cuebid the opponents suit, and is not the same thing as bidding the fourth suit in an uncontested auction).

 

A true 4SF auction is one such as 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥! with no bidding by the opponents. The 2H bid says nothing about hearts, it does not promise hearts, it does not deny hearts, it does not show a heart stop, it does not deny a heart stop. It asks opener to further describe their hand.

 

The priorities of responses are:

 

1) Show 3 card support for responders suit (spades in this case).

2) Rebid your second suit if you are 5-5 (or better),

3) Show a stop in the 4th suit if you have one by bidding 2N, or

4) Rebid your 1st suit if none of the three above are true. Some people may show a false preference for responders suit on a doubleton in this case also, but it is a non-standard treatment, imo.

5) By agreement, you may raise the 4th suit when holding 1-4-4-4 (just because it is 4th suit does not mean that partner does not have it, necessarily). I don't consider this to be a good option, but some people do.

 

You look down the list, and make the bid that is true first. The only possible exception is if you are 3-0-5-5 with 3 cards in responders suit and a void in the fourth suit. Here it is slightly better to show the 5-5 pattern, imo, as you will get another chance to bid and show support for responders suit with your next call. (You will get another chance to bid. Responder cannot make a 4SF call and then pass over your reply.)

 

If after #2, #3 or #4 above, responder rebids his suit (spades in this case), it must be 6+ in length. You have already denied three card support, so it is now asking for 2 card support. It also should be a fairly self-sufficient suit, so don't be afraid to raise to game holding a stiff.

 

A raise of 2N to 3N tends to promise a stop (or at least a partial stop) in the 4th suit as well OR a hand that expects to be able to run 9 tricks even though we only have one stop in the fourth suit.

 

After a 2N response, a rebid of 3 of one of your suits is game forcing in that suit. An initial raise of 2C to 3C would be "invitational", as would a 3D bid over 2C. By bidding the 4th suit, then supporting yours, responder has created a game force in that suit. You may also end in 3N, when opener rebids 3N at this point promising double stops in the 4th suit, i.e. 1D-1S-2C-2H!-2N-(3C or 3D)-3N.

 

A free raise of either of your suits after a 4SF bid is game forcing, regardless of your response to the 4SF bid.

 

While there are some other inferences (or negative inferences) that can be drawn from a 4SF sequence, the above will cover the majority of cases.

[jocdelevat]

Thank you all for your responses especially to bid_em_up and goobers.

even was not my intention to start a chain reaction of learning conventions from higher lever players than b/i I just took advandtge of mikeh post on reverse and ask for more which was not nice from my part. I recognize this forum as hrothgar says is for debate. BBO has already offer a club for b/i where experts and stars have lessons almost on every topic. The b/i club is free and I recomended to everyone. The only bad part of b/i club is most lessons are schedule during day eastern time which for me makes impossible to attend.(I can read a post when I'm at work but for sure I cannot sign on bbo and watch an hour or maybe 2 at work.)

Anyhow I apologize if my post suggest something like that.

 

best regards

jocdelevat

[jillybean]

Thank you all for your responses especially to bid_em_up and goobers.

even was not my intention to start a chain reaction of learning conventions from higher lever players than b/i I just took advandtge of mikeh post on reverse and ask for more which was not nice from my part. I recognize this forum as hrothgar says is for debate.

Whoa! Ask as many questions as you can :( Pick everyones brain, we never run out of expert advice on here.

I think all Richard is saying is that this forum is not the best place to create detailed documents. I’d hate for people to stop posting on here. If in future a Wiki is created we can copy the work to there and add links.

[helene_t]

Bread-and-butter FSF sequences like

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥*

should not be too difficult. If FSF is not game force, there will be a lot of third-round bids which might or might not be forcing but still it can only make life easier as opener's response to FSF will often be quite descriptive and responder will often be able to shoot at the best game.

 

The main problem is, as with many other conventions, that beginners tend to think that it FSF applies in all kinds of other situations, such as opener's third suit when responder has bid one suit. I've even seen (believe it or not) someone applying FSF when two suits had been bid by the partnership and a third suit was bid by an opponent, so the only unbid suit must count as the fourth suit!