Should one balance?

[twcho]

You are sitting at 4th position, IMP, Vul vs NV, holding A9xx x Axx Q9xxx.

 

Your LHO opens 3♥ and follows by two passes. Should you balance?

 

Our partnership will balance with double (with suitable shape) at one level with 8 HCP. Should one increase this strength with the level? 2 pts a level or 3 pts? And is this hand good enough for balancing at 3 level?

[whereagles]

There's a school of thought that says you should balance 2 and 3 level opener as if it were a 1-level opener.

 

That would make it, say,

 

Axxx

x

Kxxx

xxxx

 

as the min to dbl 3♥.

[Free]

I would double for sure

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I would not reopen with just 8HCP,

I would require a min. opener.

 

The given hand is on the border,

but would be a little bit to weak for

me.

 

You would need to know the style

of the prempts, how strong can the

partner of the preemptor be.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

easy double, 4234 would also double on 10 HCP.

[helene_t]

The hand given is minimum for me but OK.

[pbleighton]

I wouldn't balance at this level and vulnerability with this hand. It's not totally unreasonable to double, but it doesn't look right. If you were A9xx x Axxx A9xx or A9xx x Axx KQxxx, I would double, but just barely.

 

Peter

[mcphee]

I consider this 100% clear to dble. Failure to dble will lead to lost vulnerable games and collecting only 50/trick is hardly anyones idea of delight. Maybe some times you will get hurt, that is no reason to be cowardly. Not mentioned is partner waiting to convert the dble for penalties some days. Holmes would say Elementry dear Watson.

[jtfanclub]

You are sitting at 4th position, IMP, Vul vs NV, holding A9xx x Axx Q9xxx.

 

Your LHO opens 3♥ and follows by two passes. Should you balance?

I think people generally require too much to act in direct seat these days. With my regular partners, they are more frisky in direct seat, and therefore I can pass this safely...we probably will not miss a game.

 

I would balance with A9xx x Axx KQ9xx

[pbleighton]

"With my regular partners, they are more frisky in direct seat, and therefore I can pass this safely...we probably will not miss a game."

 

I agree, pd might have the right hand, but the odds are clearly against a game making.

 

Peter

[Walddk]

I will double; it's not without risk, but when I have the choice between the active (bidding) and the passive risk (passing) I tend to chose the active one. I don't have a lot of high cards, but I have an ideal shape for a take-out double.

 

If partner leaves it in, I am not unhappy when looking at two aces. Partner should realise that I am under pressure in the balancing seat and must act accordingly.

 

Roland

[bid_em_up]

This hand is a clear balancing double at the two or three level, imo.

 

RHO's failure to raise to 4♥ indicates that partner is quite likely to have a decent hand with no good bid in the direct seat (most likely because he has only two spades). The chances of partners having a decent hand are further increased by the quasi-weakness of our hand. Think of it this way, you have a preemptive bid on your left, no action by partner, and a failure to raise to 4H or bid 3N on your right. Where are the points? Usually, they are in partners hand.

 

I would not be surprised at all to find that partner holds a normal 1NT opener where 3N is cold, or a hand where 3H x'd is down 3 or 4. Balancing on this holding is an absolute must, imo, or the opponents will steal you blind.

[jtfanclub]

I would not be surprised at all to find that partner holds a normal 1NT opener where 3N is cold

 

If my partner passed with 15+ and a double stop in hearts in direct seat, he and I will have a discussion after the game. The idea that direct seat should roll over and play dead is what causes all of these problems in the first place.

 

The chances of partners having a decent hand are further increased by the quasi-weakness of our hand.

 

RHO is going to be basing his bid almost entirely on controls. Side suit queens and jacks and going to be almost worthless in a heart contract when partner is likely to have no more than 2. Give me an 12 count aceless wonder as RHO:

 

QJTx

x

KQxxx

KJx

 

and I wouldn't even consider bidding 4♥. Because you have two aces (neither of them the ace of hearts), the odds of RHO having good HCP but poor controls is pretty high.

 

If partner has the flat 12 count I expect him to have, game isn't just out of sight, it's left Earth's gravitational pull and is drifting off into the cosmos.

[pbleighton]

"If my partner passed with 15+ and a double stop in hearts in direct seat, he and I will have a discussion after the game. The idea that direct seat should roll over and play dead is what causes all of these problems in the first place."

 

Yes. I have to bid my 10 count because my partner may have 15/16? No way.

 

I need better than a minimum opener to act over 3H, but not that much better.

 

Peter

[bid_em_up]

I would not be surprised at all to find that partner holds a normal 1NT opener where 3N is cold

 

If my partner passed with 15+ and a double stop in hearts in direct seat, he and I will have a discussion after the game. The idea that direct seat should roll over and play dead is what causes all of these problems in the first place.

 

The chances of partners having a decent hand are further increased by the quasi-weakness of our hand.

 

RHO is going to be basing his bid almost entirely on controls. Side suit queens and jacks and going to be almost worthless in a heart contract when partner is likely to have no more than 2. Give me an 12 count aceless wonder as RHO:

 

QJTx

x

KQxxx

KJx

 

and I wouldn't even consider bidding 4♥. Because you have two aces (neither of them the ace of hearts), the odds of RHO having good HCP but poor controls is pretty high.

 

If partner has the flat 12 count I expect him to have, game isn't just out of sight, it's left Earth's gravitational pull and is drifting off into the cosmos.

Really?

 

KQxx xxx x AJ10xx

 

Gee, look, a 10 count that partner couldn't act on. Yet, how do you like your chances in 4S?

 

KJxx xxx x AJ10xx

 

Damn, only a 9 count and yet 4S is still looking pretty damn good.

 

Ah hell,

 

KJ10xx xxx x KJ10x

 

Wow, an 8 count where 4 spades is practically cold, as long as you can avoid a club ruff.

 

And these are the MINIMUM hands you can expect partner to reasonably hold. If you think that your partners should be bidding in direct seat over 3H on any of these hands, more power to you. I hope to have you as an opp frequently, though.

 

And as I stated, he is more likely to hold better than this.

 

A normal 15 count, where partner really shouldnt act over 3H:

 

Kx KJx QJxx AJxx

 

What would you like him to do? X? ummm, no. Direct 3N? suicidal.

 

Keep up the good work though.

[jtfanclub]

Really?

Really.

 

So, the two cases mentioned so far are...

 

Partner passed with 15+ hcp and a double stop in their suit.

 

Partner has a singleton where I have 3 cards in the suit and neither opponent has bid them.

 

Can we get something a little more likely, like a 12 count 3343?

[bid_em_up]

The odds are greatly reduced of partner holding a 3-3-4-3 12 count. Yes, he may have that hand, but if you can't understand why this is true, then I really can't help you.

 

Here's one though:

 

Kxx KJx Kxxx Jxx

 

How many is 3H x'd down? And only a 3-3-4-3 11 count. Bummer.

 

Here's another:

 

KQx xxx KQx K10xx

 

I'll take my chances of being plus in 4C (or possibly 5C). Ok, so its a 13 count, I stole the extra point from the previous example. :)

 

And just because he fails to act over 3H, does not mean you cannot have game on your 10 count as you implied in your initial post. I gave 4 reasonable examples that took all of 30 seconds to come up with. Mainly as a means of countering the claim that we simply cant have game that you made and that if partner failed to act with a 15 count, "we will have a talk after the game" or that "If partner has the flat 12 count I expect him to have, game isn't just out of sight, it's left Earth's gravitational pull and is drifting off into the cosmos." The point is your assumption that partner is on a flat 12 count is invalid. He is less likely to hold this hand, and more likely to hold some hand where he simply cannot act on his own over 3H, where game is cold.

 

And we might have a talk after the game. But I dont think you would enjoy it.

 

:)

[pbleighton]

I think there are two issues here:

1. What are your requirements for direct seat action? The higher they are, the more aggressively you have to balance.

2. How badly do you hate it when you are preempted out of a game, and how many bad scores are you willing to incur to avoid missing games?

 

Speaking for myself, I come in fairly agressively in the direct seat, in order to take pressure off partner. I understand those who don't.

 

I also allow myself to be stolen from on occasion, especially at matchpoints. Preempts work. I also avoid playing in 4D in a 4-3 fit with half the deck. Again, I understand those with a different approach. My approach comes from being a very aggressive preempter. I've got a lot more good scores from opps overbidding than from them underbidding.

 

Each to his own.

 

Peter

[pclayton]

I don't expect pard to make a vul/not 3N overcall with a live opponent on his left, holding a mangy 15 and a stop in their suit. Such actions invite -1100.

 

That being said, I reopen with a double on this but I don't feel comfortable at all. There's nothing 'automatic' about it. However, this is a very pure hand, and the stiff heart gives us a lot of flexibility. The right 8 count gives us 4♠.

 

If pard bids 3N, I hope we have a trick source.

[pclayton]

Reading back (by the way, I rarely look at other's answers before I answer a question in a thread), this discussion is beginning to get fairly heated. On any given day, pass or double might work out better and show a plus or minus.

 

Consider this. By bidding we might give up a small loss by bidding when 3♥ and 3♠/4 minor are both down 1. But by passing, we risk a huge loss when we have a game our way, or when pard is trapping over the green preempt.

 

My experience is that its very doubtful that RHO has a big misfit and is trapping, although its possible. As your table feel gets better, you can usually pick this up though.

 

I've played a few team events in the last year, and I can remember several cases where not balancing cost 12 IMPs, and none where we were nailed, even though we've gone for -200 and -300 a few times (against -140). Remember, your RHO doesn't like to bring back a -730 or -710 either.

[han]

I would double but I wouldn't like it.

[jtfanclub]

First off, sorry if this sounds like it's getting heated. Again, I'm unhappy with people going mute in direct seat, not with 'bid_em_up'. But let me go to the crux here:

 

The odds are greatly reduced of partner holding a 3-3-4-3 12 count.  Yes, he may have that hand, but if you can't understand why this is true, then I really can't help you.

 

Well, I guess you can't help me...

 

I have 10 hcp. LHO has around 8. That leaves 22 hcp for my partner and his. That's 11 apiece. I wouldn't expect my partner to say anything with an 11 count without 5 good spades, and I wouldn't expect RHO to bid with an 11 count unless he had some good fit or controls, and he doesn't have the latter. Since if either of them had a 15 count they most likley could find a bid, I'd say the chances of both of them both being in the 8-14 range are pretty good.

 

As far as balanced, well, LHO has 7 hearts, and I have 1. RHO surely would have bid if he had 4 hearts. That leaves 2-4 for partner and 1-3 for RHO. My hand is balanced outside of hearts, LHO hasn't shown shape except for hearts, no reason to think that my partner isn't balanced- he's more likely to be balanced than average.

 

I think a balanced 11 count is exactly what I should expect from partner. May have a little more, may have a little less. It's not that I disagree necessarily with balancing, it's that I think examples of 15 counts or singleton diamonds aren't useful, as those hands are rare enough that they aren't worth considering. On the other hand, the hands in your last example are much more down to earth, if you'll excuse the pun. And if you want to X in hopes that your partner has one of those hands, then I think that's a reasonable thing to do.

[MFA]

Double.

I'm minimum for this, but my hand should be useful whatever partner does.

[awm]

With a singleton and aces my feeling is that balancing is usually right. Most of the time either:

 

(1) Partner has some values in hearts. In this case we will almost always beat 3♥X. I have two pretty much guaranteed defensive tricks; partner is unlikely to be broke and my aces and queen turn his kings into gold.

 

(2) Partner has nothing in hearts. In this case we have a singleton opposite 3-4 small cards, which is virtually always good. We can make something, or at least not go down very much.

 

My general tendency is to be aggressive with shortness in the enemy suit and conservative with length. This tends to avoid disasters when we both have moderate length in their suit. If you gave me a second heart instead of one of those clubs I would pass.

[Apollo81]

If my partner passed with 15+ and a double stop in hearts in direct seat, he and I will have a discussion after the game. The idea that direct seat should roll over and play dead is what causes all of these problems in the first place.

Then you are simply trading risk in balancing for risk in direct actions. Most people prefer to see what preemptor's partner does before deciding whether to take the risky action.

 

IMO it is clear to double on the given hand.