finished or not?

[Free]

You're sitting South, and you hold:

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=saq42hqdjt2caqt43]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

The auction starts:

1♥ - pass - 2♥ - Dbl

3♥ - pass - pass - ???

 

Do you take any more action?

[Fluffy]

yes, one more action: pass :rolleyes:, alternatively try to bid 3♣ and say oh sorry non sufficent bid, and then pass.

[hotShot]

yes, one more action: pass :rolleyes:, alternatively try to bid 3♣ and say oh sorry non sufficent bid, and then pass.

But don't cry when the TD gives declarer the choice to forbid or to order ♣ leads from your partner for the rest of the game.

[pclayton]

I think I remember this. I have a lot of sympathy for both of our calls.

 

Pass.

[MFA]

Pass. No problem.

[P_Marlowe]

No, wtp?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pclayton]

No, wtp?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

I think what Free is alluding to is that the initial double is considered to be a pre-balance.

 

In this day and age, the double could be made on a lot less. I'd venture to say many would make the call with an Ace less, and maybe even an Ace + Queen less.

 

For the bidding to this point you have considerable extra values.

[inquiry]

This is a difficult hand. You have a "sound" double of 2♥, but that was an OBAR situation (Opponents Bid and Raise) were you could be much, much weaker. Since your hand could be much worse, it is difficult for your partner to bid with a smatterig of hcp, ESPECIALLY since you are red and they are white.

 

So first, if you DO NOT play OBAR type bids, this is a clear pass. You showed your values with the first double. If you do play OBAR, you have to reconsider.

 

If 3♥ was "preemptive" as if often the case, your partner is marked for some hcp. If they are not in hearts, you will want to compete. In this case, I think I will double again here. So after a "preemptivve" 3♥ and you double, should it be left in, your heart queen might be useful, setting up Jxx or J9xx in partners hand for some tricks. And if partner has 4♠'s, they are unlikely to double you in 3♠ at imps, --even if it is wrong -- as that might produce a vul game swing. On the other hand, if 3♥ was a game try, I would simply pass.

 

Thus, I have not answered the poll, since I need to know their agreement on the 3♥ raise and rather or not partner would play me for an OBAR double on this auction.

[han]

Not difficult at all, clear pass, even when you agreed to play OBAR.

[kenberg]

I voted no action but I had not expected such unanimity. My thinking mostly was that with the majority of the points to my left those AQ combinations look to be less powerful than they may appear at first glance. Besides getting our side too high, I am not all that sure we can beat 4H should they bid it. Partner might have something over there, but yes, I pass.

[whereagles]

Ben, it doesn't matter what pard will play you for. He is broke. Even in the best-case-scenario of pard having the black kings, you're a heavy favourite to lose 4 tricks in the red suits.

 

Unless you feel confident that pard has a magic 4♠333 and the black kings, you will go down. So, at imps just pass.

[P_Marlowe]

No, wtp?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

I think what Free is alluding to is that the initial double is considered to be a pre-balance.

 

In this day and age, the double could be made on a lot less. I'd venture to say many would make the call with an Ace less, and maybe even an Ace + Queen less.

 

For the bidding to this point you have considerable extra values.

Agreed, I could be weaker.

 

But do I have enough, to force partner

to play on the 4level?

 

My partners dont have 4/5 spades and 6-9

points, they would have bid them.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[inquiry]

Ben, it doesn't matter what pard will play you for. He is broke. Even in the best-case-scenario of pard having the black kings, you're a heavy favourite to lose 4 tricks in the red suits.

 

Unless you feel confident that pard has a magic 4♠333 and the black kings, you will go down. So, at imps just pass.

I would be surprised to lose 3 diamonds. Partner will not be broke if 3♥ was preemptive. And whatever he has in diamonds hopefully will be working. If he has the diamond King or ACE, we might even win two diamond tricks. Of course if RHO's has diamond honors and LHO has black card honors, we could be in a world of hurt. Reverse those (black honors on RHO, diamonds on LHO), we might make 10 tricks in spades or 11 tricks in clubs, not that I think we will bid game.

 

Again, only bid again if both horses win.. horse one you play OBAR so partner can expect a lot less than you hold (the purpose of double is to push to them to three level). Second, horse in the race is 3♥ is a weak preemptive raise. -200 versus -140 isn't the worse thing in the world, nor is +140 versus +50 so great. But +140 versus -140 is beginning to add up to something. Of course, we could be -500 which would not make partner very happy.... so we might add a third horse... a partner who is very understanding when this double goes wrong.

[jtfanclub]

Showing my usual weirdness (or maybe it isn't that weird)...

 

To me, an X here is two-way...it's still takeout shape (you haven't found an extra card on the floor since the last X), but it has enough defensive strength that if partner has enough cards in their suit to leave in the X, I won't be unhappy about the conversion.

 

This hand is very close to that. I really like the Q♥ for this purpose- if partner has 4 hearts with some strength, my queen is likely to help him take another trick. On the other hand, I need to devalue those queens. Even if partner has the king, I doubt that both opponents have 3 cards in the suit.

 

I expect partner to leave in with 4 semi-decent hearts and one outside trick, say as a minimum...

 

xxx

JT8x

xxx

Kxx

 

That actually has an excellent shot of setting 3♥.

 

On the other hand, if partner has...

JT8x

xxx

xxx

Kxx

 

We're going to be down 1 at 3♠, most likely, but they were making 3♥.

 

Doesn't look bad, actually. The nice thing is, any king partner has is going to end up being worth a trick in both directions- if partner has the Kxx in hearts, that's a trick in spades as well as hearts.

 

I'll X, but I wouldn't do it without that queen of hearts.

 

This assumes that 3♥ is pre-emptive, so partner should have at least 4 hcp.

[pbleighton]

You asked a question, pd gave you an answer, you don't have a big hand.

 

Anything but pass is against the odds.

 

Peter

[whereagles]

Ben: well, if you're so quite confident you'll find pard with the goods, by all means dbl again. But I wouldn't be so certain he has them. After all, pree or no pree, opps are a heavy favourite to hold 20+ hcp...

[inquiry]

Ben: well, if you're so quite confident you'll find pard with the goods, by all means dbl again. But I wouldn't be so certain he has them. After all, pree or no pree, opps are a heavy favourite to hold 20+ hcp...

Well, confident I am not. I put a lot of restrictions on my choice of doubling again. Clearly if 3♥ was some sort of game try, I have to pass. Only if 3♥ is preemptive is it correct to consider bidding again, and even then only if I could be a lot weaker that this (given OBAR).

 

Think about it. 2♥ is limited to maybe 10, and on average, a 2♥ raise is 8 hcp or less. Second, 3♥ preemptive would be on 13 or 14 max, and could be as few as 10 or even less given modern treatment. Lets give them 13+8. That is 21. RHO may be max of 10, LHO maybe min of 10/11, or they both maybe max or both min, so 21 is a fairly reasonable estimate.

 

Since I have 15, that leaves partner with an estimated four hcp (similar to the values JTFANCLUB proposed). Of course, they may have as many as 23 points or as few as 17/18. Give LHO 10/11 hcp and RHO 6/7 it is our hand. Give LHO 13 and RHO 10, and we could be in trouble. But this is the risk of playing OBAR.

 

Give your partner some reasonable hand, like xxxx xxx KQxx Kx and he will not bid over 3♥ because you could be an ace or even A-Q weaker than you are. Move some cards around, give him Kxxx xxxx xx KJx and you have great play for 4♠ (well 3♠+170) losing just 3 red cards. And again, he doesn't have enough to move over 3♥ because you can (AND ARE OFTEN) be much weaker than you are.

 

Obviously if you are not playing OBAR, the second hand would have bid 3♠ over 3♥ and the first one might have tried a responsive double or a direct 3♠ bid. Playing OBAR neither can move. Experience has suggested that if pass again with good shape (4135 is good) and good values after a preemptive re-raise, you will get your lunch money stolen more often than not. But I will admit the second double is more clear at MP than imps, because with the second double is wrong, it is really, really wrong.

[skjaeran]

yes, one more action: pass :P, alternatively try to bid 3♣ and say oh sorry non sufficent bid, and then pass.

But don't cry when the TD gives declarer the choice to forbid or to order ♣ leads from your partner for the rest of the game.

Not for the rest of the game, just the first time (s)he's on lead.

[Apollo81]

light pre balancing doesn't apply vul against not at IMPs (unless you're crazy)

 

I think I have a little extra but not much. Easy pass.

[Free]

Ben: LHO (star) didn't make a gametry, 3♥ is just preemptive.

 

Like Phil remembers, I passed and that was the end of the auction. We have 3♠ available, opps don't have 3♥ but they're likely to succeed because of lucky layout and a likely error in the defense. Partner's pass was correct in my view, but I didn't think my choice would be this clear. Apparently I was thinking about too many things before I passed unhappily. :P We made the defensive error, but LHO still went down.

[whereagles]

Ben: if 3♥ is preemptive (as Free said) then pard also knows your point count and infer the dbl is not OBAR. No need to dbl again to tell him that ;)

[skjaeran]

Ben: if 3♥ is preemptive (as Free said) then pard also knows your point count and infer the dbl is not OBAR. No need to dbl again to tell him that :P

That's not entirely true. Opener could be more than minimum.

With a very strong hand he'd raise to game, that's true. But partner can't know I'm full strength for my first double.

 

I'd still take no further action.

[MFA]

Opener could be more than minimum.

Exactly.

Opener just competes to 3♥, that's all there is to the preemptive meaning of 3♥.

 

The ♥Q is a huge liability in this situation.

1. It might give us an extra defensive trick and thus make a competitive move wrong.

 

2. It means that partner on average will have a worse hand than without the queen. There are simply fewer hcp left for him.

 

Forget all about the ♥Q helping us, if partner has a penalty pass. He doesn't :P.

 

(I would not have doubled without the ♥Q. But with the ♥Q, it is a much easier pass).