A primer on reverse bidding

[tmgrl4]

Mikeh....I loved your long first post. I am a true beginner and never understood the concept of reverse AT ALL until your post.

 

While I read the other posts, which contain info way above my level, what I remember when I read your post, is ....

 

In bridge, there is "usually" rather than "always."

 

Thank you!!

 

terri

[bucky]

Nice introductory post to the topic of reverse. What about reverse sequences that only involve 2 suits, i.e. 1X - 1NT - 2Y, where Y is a higher-ranking suit than X? I'd like to hear about the standard/expert treatment, as well as other useful (albeit non-mainstream) offering.

[mikeh]

A number of people have suggested that after 1♥  1N,  2♠ be used as an artificial bid.

 

One suggestion I have seen is that this be played as a puppet to 2N, over which opener clarifies his hand type. This has the advantage of allowing direct jumps to 3minor, over 1N, to carry tighter and perhaps fundamentally different meanings than the traditional (in std or 2/1) of absolute gf, with 3♣ often a fake suit. For example, one could now define all immediate jumps as gf but promising at least 5-5 in the 2 suits, making responder's decisions about raising the 2nd suit with, say, 3 card support easier than when the suit could be 4 cards or, especially with clubs, 3 or even fewer.

 

Since I don't play this, I haven't spent any time discussing the ramifications with anyone experienced with these methods. One point, tho: if you adopt this, you had better have an agreement about how you bid 5=6 majors....tho this is a rare hand-type, it will arise from time to time.

 

Also: if you use 2♠ as a puppet, is it ever based on a good hand with 4=5=2=2/4=5=(31)? If so, how do you clarify?

 

Also: how far is 2♠, whether artificial or natural, forcing (in the scheme to which I referred above, it may be best played as gf).

 

As for other reverses:

 

Many players, me included, use a 1N response to 1♣ as showing 8-10 and this is almost always 3=3=4=3 or 3=3=3=4, altho some (32)=4=4 hands will qualify as may some 5332's with 5 weak clubs especially if 1♣ could be 4=4=3=2.

 

So for me, a reverse over 1N will be gf, simply because responder is marked with values.

 

After 1♦, a reverse into 2Major will not be, in itself, gf. I would do it on many non-minimum 5=6 hands...only with minimums would I open 1major. So I would play ingberman or lebensohl (preferably ingberman) here.

 

Hope that helps.

[mgoetze]

Maybe someone could clarify what the fourth-suit bid means if playing Lebensohl/Ingberman and 2NT is available to show weakness. For instance, the bidding goes 1♥-2♦-2♠-3♣. Does this ask for a stopper, show a stopper, or is it a natural (and if so does it show 4+ or 5+)?

[hanp]

Your auction is very different from the ingberman/lebensohl auctions that have been discussed in this thread. Whether you play that 2D shows a gameforce or not, clearly 2S set a gameforce so nobody in their right mind would use 2NT as lebensohl there.

 

Perhaps you meant to ask about an auction such as 1D - 1S - 2H - 3C..

 

There I prefer to play that 3C is gameforcing without a better bid. Therefore it denies 5 spades (else 2S or 3S), 4 hearts (else 3H) or 3 diamonds (else 3D) and thus at least 4 clubs. It doesn't show or deny a club stopper.

 

A possible hand is Kxxx Qxx Kx Axxx. Although I play that a jump to 3NT shows 11-12 HCP, I wouldn't use it on a hand as suitable for other contracts as this one. If partner bids 3NT I would pass, but over any other rebid I would not bid 3NT.

[mgoetze]

Your auction is very different from the ingberman/lebensohl auctions that have been discussed in this thread. Whether you play that 2D shows a gameforce or not, clearly 2S set a gameforce so nobody in their right mind would use 2NT as lebensohl there.

 

Perhaps you meant to ask about an auction such as 1D - 1S - 2H - 3C..

 

There I prefer to play that 3C is gameforcing without a better bid. Therefore it denies 5 spades (else 2S or 3S), 4 hearts (else 3H) or 3 diamonds (else 3D) and thus at least 4 clubs. It doesn't show or deny a club stopper.

 

A possible hand is Kxxx Qxx Kx Axxx. Although I play that a jump to 3NT shows 11-12 HCP, I wouldn't use it on a hand as suitable for other contracts as this one. If partner bids 3NT I would pass, but over any other rebid I would not bid 3NT.

Yes, sorry, 2/1 auctions are different of course. So, right, 1♦-1♠-2♥-3♣.

 

Do you bid differently with Kxxx Qxx Kx KJTx?

[hanp]

Yes I think that that hand is almost perfect for the jump to 3NT, if you have agreed it shows 11-12 or course. With less I'd start with 2NT and rebid 3NT.

[kgr]

Yes I think that that hand is almost perfect for the jump to 3NT, if you have agreed it shows 11-12 or course. With less I'd start with 2NT and rebid 3NT.

I wonder what expert standard is.

I play that 3NT is to play (max 11HCP) and 2NT..3NT is 12-14, 2NT..4NT is 15-16

[bluecalm]

It was pointed out that I should educate myself as to reverses so I am reading this great thread :)

 

My question is:

If you play "strong reverse" as you call it what do you bid with:

 

x AJxx AKJxx Qxx or:

x AJxx AKJxx QJx

 

after:

 

1♦ - 1♠

????

[mikeh]

It was pointed out that I should educate myself as to reverses so I am reading this great thread :)

 

My question is:

If you play "strong reverse" as you call it what do you bid with:

 

x AJxx AKJxx Qxx or:

x AJxx AKJxx QJx

 

after:

 

1♦ - 1♠

????

one popular method is to bid 2♣. Indeed, this was espoused many years ago by such as Al Roth, and was a staple of the BW MSC for a long time (and probably still would be for many panelists if they posted this sort of hand type)

 

As Roth used to say: if I can get by this round......

[bluecalm]

I didn't except this answer (2♣) so I need to change hands a bit o illustrate the problem I had in mind.

What about 2-4-5-2 with 15-16hcp ?

Say something like:

 

Ax KJxx AKxxx xx

Ax KQxx AKxxx xx ?

[gwnn]

you open 1N with those

[bluecalm]

Ok, so I open 1NT with every 2-4-5-2 15-16.

Rebid 2♣ with 1-4-5-3 15-16 and happily reverse with 3-4-5-1 as my hand is supposedly stronger having support for partner suit.

Is that right ?

[gwnn]

That sounds right to me. Maybe not mikeh. However, for one reason or another, I don't recall ever rebidding this funky 2C bid either because I reversed or rebid 1N or something. I don't know.

 

I'd bid 1D and 2H with some 5422's with 16 if the doubletons started getting too small and therefore my suits better and better.

[bluecalm]

I don't recall ever rebidding this funky 2C bid either

 

I think the reason is that auction:

1♦ - 1♠

2♥

 

Is quite rare.

My very quick simul shows it arises once in every 1100 hands and that's not counting opponents/partner starting the bidding, overcalling or partner being 5♣-4♠ 12+ (so he starts with 2♣).

Probably once in every 1500 hands is closer to real frequency which makes it one in every 50 matchpoint sessions. On many of those hands you have easy rebid too.

[hanp]

Ok, so I open 1NT with every 2-4-5-2 15-16.

Rebid 2♣ with 1-4-5-3 15-16 and happily reverse with 3-4-5-1 as my hand is supposedly stronger having support for partner suit.

Is that right ?

I think this is good advice. Also, with 4-6 shape and good suits I would definitely reverse with 15-16 HCP, mikeh and I have had long discussions about this on the forums.

 

Of course, how strong your reverses are is a matter of style, and what is important is that you discuss this with partner. If you play them much lighter than mikeh, it may be better to play 2S as NF.

[mgoetze]

Let's say we play that 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2♠ is forcing, as espoused by Frances Hinden. Two questions:

 

1. Can responder then pass 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2♠; 3♠? How about 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2♠; 3♣?

 

2. What does 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2NT; 3♣-3♠ show?

[Phil]

As an aside and a little off-topic, I think it would be great if we had other primers in the B/i section. Mike's original article was written over four years ago.

[kgr]

Let's say we play that 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2♠ is forcing, as espoused by Frances Hinden. Two questions:

I play this as forcing (I don't know how standard this is) and below are how I play the follow ups (maybe not best/standard, but that is our system)

 

1. Can responder then pass 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2♠; 3♠? How about 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2♠; 3♣?

After 2♠ we play that only the raise to 3♠ and 4th suit are forcing.

 

2. What does 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2NT; 3♣-3♠ show?

direct 3♠ after the reverse would be a very good ♠-suit.

2♠ followed by 3♠ over a bid by opener is forcing for us: 6c♠ that is not good enough for a direct 3♠ bid.

=> We decided that 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2NT; 3♣-3♠ shows a minimum hand with 6c♠ and is NF. This is easy because it makes all 3-level bids (also 4th suit) by responder after going via 2NT NF.

[JLOGIC]

 

1. Can responder then pass 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2♠; 3♠? How about 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2♠; 3♣?

 

 

absolutely

[ripeAces]

Consider the hand:

♠: AQJ7

♥: AQJ98

♦: 65

♣: 93

 

In a system like Acol which alows 4 card openers, I assume that you would be forced to open 1♠ since you would not have enough strength to reverse the rebid if you open 1♥.

Is this correct?

 

How do you bid this if playing 5-card majors?

If we open 1♥ we may need to reverse the rebid into 2♠ but we cannot open the spades with only 4.

I assume that we really cannot open 1♣ or 1♦ in this situation since we may get into huge trouble if our partner passes especially if we are vulnerable?

 

Im a new player, so a fundamental misunderstanding is possible.

[JLOGIC]

If you open 1H you will not really have a rebid problem playing standard american.

 

Some of the time partner will have 3+ hearts and raise hearts.

Some of the time partner will have 4+ spades and bid 1S, in which case you can raise spades.

Some of the time partner will have 10+ points and bid 2C or 2D, in which case you have enough to force to game (and even if you didn't rebidding 2H would not show 6 hearts, it would just show a minimum).

When partner has none of those, he will bid 1N, and you can comfortably pass since he has at most 10 points (no game), and not 4 spades (no 1 spade bid) and not 3 hearts (didn't raise hearts).

 

If you play 2/1, you might have a problem sometimes when partner bids a forcing NT. However, a 2C reply to a forcing NT in standard american does not promise more than a 2 card suit because of this exact situation. If partner has 2 hearts and 4 clubs, he will always take you back to 2H. If partner has 1 heart and 4 clubs that means he has 5+ diamonds (since he cannot have 4 spades...he did not respond 1S), and he will bid 2D. So you are never going to play a 6 card fit, if partner passes he will have 5 clubs in 2/1. And remember, a large portion of the time partner will have 3+ hearts, or 4+ spades, or a game forcing hand, or the opps will bid, in which case there will be no rebid problem anyways. I wouldn't worry about it.

[gwnn]

Consider the hand:

♠: AQJ7

♥: AQJ98

♦: 65

♣: 93

 

In a system like Acol which alows 4 card openers, I assume that you would be forced to open 1♠ since you would not have enough strength to reverse the rebid if you open 1♥.

Is this correct?

No, in Acol they also open 1♥.

[ripeAces]

If you open 1H you will not really have a rebid problem playing standard american.

 

Some of the time partner will have 3+ hearts and raise hearts.

Some of the time partner will have 4+ spades and bid 1S, in which case you can raise spades.

Some of the time partner will have 10+ points and bid 2C or 2D, in which case you have enough to force to game (and even if you didn't rebidding 2H would not show 6 hearts, it would just show a minimum).

When partner has none of those, he will bid 1N, and you can comfortably pass since he has at most 10 points (no game), and not 4 spades (no 1 spade bid) and not 3 hearts (didn't raise hearts).

 

If you play 2/1, you might have a problem sometimes when partner bids a forcing NT. However, a 2C reply to a forcing NT in standard american does not promise more than a 2 card suit because of this exact situation. If partner has 2 hearts and 4 clubs, he will always take you back to 2H. If partner has 1 heart and 4 clubs that means he has 5+ diamonds (since he cannot have 4 spades...he did not respond 1S), and he will bid 2D. So you are never going to play a 6 card fit, if partner passes he will have 5 clubs in 2/1. And remember, a large portion of the time partner will have 3+ hearts, or 4+ spades, or a game forcing hand, or the opps will bid, in which case there will be no rebid problem anyways. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Thanks, the first half of your reply makes a lot of sense.

I do not know much about 2/1 so Ill have to do a bit of reading.

 

You didnt comment on what happens if not playing 5-card majors.

Since your partner may not support hearts with what he thinks is only a 4-3 fit.

Should we rather bid 1♠, or is it still best to bid 1♥.

 

Thanks again

[ripeAces]

Sorry I see somebody else already replied to the first situation