Seam in bidding

[pclayton]

Can you come up with a plausible sequence to get to the excellent 4♠:

 

[hv=d=w&v=e&w=sqthaq7xdxxxcjtxx&e=sak9xxxhkxxdxxca9]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

We bid Pass - 1♠ - 1N - 2♠ - AP.

 

1N is semi-forcing. We also play Gazilli (if you want to include that in your thoughts, go ahead).

 

The other table (in swing mode) raised to 3♠

 

By the way, anyone that suggests the West hand is worth a raise shall be asked how you reached a terrible game when Opener's red suits are reversed.

[Guest Jlall]

Can you come up with a plausible sequence to get to the excellent 4♠:

 

[hv=d=w&v=e&w=sqthaq7xdxxxcjtxx&e=sak9xxxhkxxdxxca9]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

We bid Pass - 1♠ - 1N - 2♠ - AP.

completely normal.

[Echognome]

Nope. Can't come up with one. Here it just happens that the hands mesh extraordinarily well and there is very little wastage. I imagine in all of the systems I play to have the same auction as yourself.

[hotShot]

Can you come up with a plausible sequence to get to the excellent 4♠:

No, but if I'm needing a swing, I might risk 3♠ instead of 2♠.

[skjaeran]

In our methods:

P - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♥ - 4♠.

We play transfers after 1♠-1NT. 2♥ shows a good 2♠ rebid.

[pbleighton]

No.

 

Peter

[pclayton]

In our methods:

P - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♥ - 4♠.

We play transfers after 1♠-1NT. 2♥ shows a good 2♠ rebid.

This is somewhat plausible, however the jump to 4♠ looks a little rich, even though opener shows a max 2♠ call. Note my prior comment about reversing the red suits.

 

If there was a way responder could make a game try to showed the hands meshed better, I'd put more faith in this idea.

 

Question: how do you show clubs? Is 1N semi forcing for you too?

[jtfanclub]

Dealer: West Vul: E/W Scoring: IMP

♠ QT ♥ AQ7x ♦ xxx ♣ JTxx ♠ AK9xxx ♥ Kxx ♦ xx ♣ A9

I wouldn't mind being there if the red suits are reversed in opener...though that's because of wonderful spots in clubs.

 

Looks to me like the only way for you to get there is for responder to upgrade his hand to 10 hcp. Seems pushy.

 

-- 1♠

1NT 2♠

3♥ 4♠

 

Assuming the 1NT denies a GF hand with 4 hearts.

[inquiry]

I am not going to suggest you change a thing, but I do want to speak a moment about Gazilli. I use Ritong 2♣ which is, essentially the same. I couple this with a 2♠ opening bid to show spades and clubs and a weak opening hand.

 

But ok... so what is your minimum requiement for your 2♣ rebid. I ask because the north hand, while only 14 hcp, has some very nice features. A reasonable 6 card suit, 6 controls, and if you care to count them, 33 ZAR points. For me, this one would tip the scales as just enough for the 2♣ Ritong rebid. The plan would be to rebid 2♠ over partners relay of 2♦, if partner bids 2♥, I would have a hard choice between pass and raise hearts.

 

So for me, the auction would be

 

1♠ - 1NT

2♣ - 2♦*

2♠

 

2♦ promised some stuff, 2♠ shows a hand like this without the suit quality for a jump to 3♠. This is a minimum for this auction. Over 2♠ responder would bid again. Henri himself promises 16 hcp for this bid I think, but I use ZAR points instead. The 2♠ rebid without the 2♣ bid is limited to 32 zar points or less, so this hand just barely qualifies.

 

At this point, I have several methods, none of which I have decided is best.

 

2NT would have been natural over 2♣, so one method is 2NT now is transfer to clubs, 3C transfer to 3D, 3D transfer to 3H, 3H balanced game try willing to stop in 3♠ and 3♠ what it sounds like. Here i would try to transfer to hearts, then raise to 3 spades. If my reds were reversed, I would try to transfer to diamonds then raise to 3♠. Over the heart transfer partner will bid 4♥, so I will correct to 4♠ of course. Note, I can not be really weak with hearts as I would have bid 2♥ over 2♣ (weak hand long hearts), nor can I have good 9 to 11 with hearts and no spade fit, as I play 3♥ over 1♠ shows that hand.

 

The other method I have tried is 2NT over 2♠ is lebehnshol, so direct new suit at the three level shows the bid suit and some modest values (not strong enough for direct jump, too strong for some other auctions). I think I like the transfer business in the first example so that you can show concentration of values and two card support... .(Note my 1NT bid NEVER has 3 or more card support, so mine is not typical 2/1 GF).

[mike777]

Can you come up with a plausible sequence to get to the excellent 4♠:

 

[hv=d=w&v=e&w=sqthaq7xdxxxcjtxx&e=sak9xxxhkxxdxxca9]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

We bid Pass - 1♠ - 1N - 2♠ - AP.

 

1N is semi-forcing. We also play Gazilli (if you want to include that in your thoughts, go ahead).

 

The other table (in swing mode) raised to 3♠

 

By the way, anyone that suggests the West hand is worth a raise shall be asked how you reached a terrible game when Opener's red suits are reversed.

nope

[pclayton]

I am not going to suggest you change a thing, but I do want to speak a moment about Gazilli. I use Ritong 2♣ which is, essentially the same. I couple this with a 2♠ opening bid to show spades and clubs and a weak opening hand.

 

But ok... so what is your minimum requiement for your 2♣ rebid. I ask because the north hand, while only 14 hcp, has some very nice features. A reasonable 6 card suit, 6 controls, and if you care to count them, 33 ZAR points. For me, this one would tip the scales as just enough for the 2♣ Ritong rebid. The plan would be to rebid 2♠ over partners relay of 2♦, if partner bids 2♥, I would have a hard choice between pass and raise hearts.

 

So for me, the auction would be

 

1♠ - 1NT

2♣ - 2♦*

2♠

 

2♦ promised some stuff, 2♠ shows a hand like this without the suit quality for a jump to 3♠. This is a minimum for this auction. Over 2♠ responder would bid again. Henri himself promises 16 hcp for this bid I think, but I use ZAR points instead. The 2♠ rebid without the 2♣ bid is limited to 32 zar points or less, so this hand just barely qualifies.

 

At this point, I have several methods, none of which I have decided is best.

 

2NT would have been natural over 2♣, so one method is 2NT now is transfer to clubs, 3C transfer to 3D, 3D transfer to 3H, 3H balanced game try willing to stop in 3♠ and 3♠ what it sounds like. Here i would try to transfer to hearts, then raise to 3 spades. If my reds were reversed, I would try to transfer to diamonds then raise to 3♠. Over the heart transfer partner will bid 4♥, so I will correct to 4♠ of course. Note, I can not be really weak with hearts as I would have bid 2♥ over 2♣ (weak hand long hearts), nor can I have good 9 to 11 with hearts and no spade fit, as I play 3♥ over 1♠ shows that hand.

 

The other method I have tried is 2NT over 2♠ is lebehnshol, so direct new suit at the three level shows the bid suit and some modest values (not strong enough for direct jump, too strong for some other auctions). I think I like the transfer business in the first example so that you can show concentration of values and two card support... .(Note my 1NT bid NEVER has 3 or more card support, so mine is not typical 2/1 GF).

Ritong is nice when it comes up because the 1 major - 1N - 2C - 2D - 2 major rebid shows this type of hand. In traditional Gazili, it shows the Ritong 2 major opener; minimum opener; 5 major / 4 clubs.

 

So unless we revamp our 2 of a major opening bids (and Im not at all convinced of the effectiveness / frequency of this method), this is still a gap for us.

[kenrexford]

I would also stop at 2♠.

 

That being said, I have long thought that the auction 1X-P-1NT-P-2X would best be handled if Responder passed most of the time, even with a void.

 

This would allow a new suit bid to be a COV call, agreeing the "x" suit, with the idea being a search for 3NT when "x" is a minor or 4M if "x" is a major.

 

Years ago, I just assumed that this was what people did. So, for instance, I would bid 2♥ after 1♦-P-1NT-P-2♦-P-2♥ with a COV in hearts, diamond support, and constructive values. I was yelled at by a better player for doing this, as it was describecd as "too esoteric." (Surprise, surprise.)

 

I still think this makes sense in the long run, especially after the minors.

 

After the majors, this is a little more tricky, but 1♥-P-1NT-P-2♥-P-2♠ seems imminently reasonable as for this hand type, perhaps 2NT a relay so Responder can identify the location of the COV.

 

After 1♠-P-1NT-P-2♠, space is cramped terribly. If the 2/1 GF allows 2min...3min as passable, then perhaps 3♣ in this auction as a COV is more useful than weak with very long in the minor, especially at IMPs. If 1♦-P-3♥ replaces the 1♠-P-3♦ Bergen and 3♦ instead shows invitational with hearts, or 3♥ shows that, then 3♥ in this auction might be more useful as a COV bid, as well.

 

Good problem, with room for thought.

[Apollo81]

This is the only "plausible" sequence I can come up with, and it requires playing a 2M opening as 10-13.

 

p-1♠

1N-2♠*

4♠

 

*14-16

[mike777]

Ya Roth stone may get you there, but I doubt you are playing that. :rolleyes:

[pbleighton]

"Ya Roth stone may get you there, but I doubt you are playing that."

 

Are you?

 

Peter

[Guest Jlall]

So, for instance, I would bid 2♥ after 1♦-P-1NT-P-2♦-P-2♥ with a COV in hearts, diamond support, and constructive values.

That is actually normal (since you can't have heart length on this auction).

[awm]

I think the title "a seam in bidding" is pretty descriptive here. There are a lot of sequences where you can miss a game if both sides have a maximum for their bidding. The typical example is opening 1NT (15-17) opposite a good 7 or bad 8, where most of us won't invite but the dead maximum 1NT bid makes a game. Of course you could just invite with those hands but you'll reach a lot of bad games when opener has some 16 and accepts the invite, or bad 2NT contracts when opener has a min. This basically is the case with any range you pick...

 

So of course you can produce an auction that reaches game if you agree that the limits on bids are different (say you agree to open intermediate twos, or that a jump-rebid of spades shows 14-16) but you'll also reach some bad spots on other hands. I think if responder's hand was one point better (and opener's hand one point worse) you could reach game in a variety of ways (even showing concentration of values as Ken suggests to reach the good games and not bad ones).

[paulg]

As you are playing Gazilli, is this hand not worth (or at least very close to) 3♠?

 

Although I'd prefer nicer pips, the controls would lend me to rebid 3♠. Of course this means I'll reach game independent of the red suit fits.

 

Paul

[pclayton]

As you are playing Gazilli, is this hand not worth (or at least very close to) 3♠?

 

Although I'd prefer nicer pips, the controls would lend me to rebid 3♠. Of course this means I'll reach game independent of the red suit fits.

 

Paul

Our Gazilli structure (maybe we are playing this incorrectly) is that a 3♠ rebid is pretty typical; 15-17 or so. A delayed 3♠ call is GF.

[paulg]

As you are playing Gazilli, is this hand not worth (or at least very close to) 3♠?

 

Although I'd prefer nicer pips, the controls would lend me to rebid 3♠. Of course this means I'll reach game independent of the red suit fits.

 

Paul

Our Gazilli structure (maybe we are playing this incorrectly) is that a 3♠ rebid is pretty typical; 15-17 or so. A delayed 3♠ call is GF.

The Ambra (Garozzo) version puts all 17+ hands through Gazilli, so 3♠ becomes 14-16. We play this version so the hand is on the cusp.

 

I think this difference may reflect the lighter opening style that seems more common in Europe (although it is spreading). Given some of the rubbish that we open this hand does look quite strong, but like the Italians we bid some awful games - if only we could play the cards like them!

 

Paul

[kenrexford]

So, for instance, I would bid 2♥ after 1♦-P-1NT-P-2♦-P-2♥ with a COV in hearts, diamond support, and constructive values.

That is actually normal (since you can't have heart length on this auction).

Thank God! I thought I was losing it when I was told that this was too esoteric. LOL

[pclayton]

I wouldn't mind being there if the red suits are reversed in opener...though that's because of wonderful spots in clubs.

Its a better game with the ♣9, but its far from being "good".

 

[hv=w=sqthaqxxdxxxcjtxx&e=sak9xxxhxxdkxxca9]266|100|[/hv]

 

Lets assume we get one red suit honor on, and one off. To be nice, we'll assume spades split and club honors are split.

 

1. Heart King on - Diamond ace off. Assume a heart lead. We hook Q, play a club to the 9, losing to KQing. Heart comes back - yuk. Now we have to hook the spade 10 for the extra entry.

 

A club lead solves all problems, and a spade lead is probably OK too.

 

2. Diamond Ace on, heart king off. Again, heart lead, hooking and losing. Diamond shift = -1.

[glen]

Can you come up with a plausible sequence to get to the excellent 4♠.

First a long story (okay long paragraph): I played something with sombody for a couple of years, he then played it with his new partner, who then played it with his new partner, and then that player played it with her husband, who now plays it with his partner, last used in last year's Canadian National Finals. I don't know if it is any good in theory, but results have been good for near a decade with it. The sad part is I don't play it with my wife at this time, so the only thing that happens is I lose to it now.

 

It is 2♥ and 2♠ openings as 10-13 (some play it as 10-14 but good 14s don't count, and one player is trying out 10-13 2♦ openings) - Apollo81 and awm mentioned these above, one as intermediate twos. Now maybe these openings destroy partnerships based on the track records.

 

However on this hand it goes 1♠-1NT--2♠-move.

 

One key thing my first partner playing this invented was that 2M-3♣/3♦ was forcing and either long suit, or values there + invite in M: this helped us a lot in getting to games or staying out of games. I've always wondered if after 1♠-1NT--2♠ in standard 2/1, if 2NT should be a puppet to 3♣ or something, and 3♣/♦ forcing with a game try.

[HeartA]

completely normal.

"Normal"?, maybe? "completely? maybe not. Both sides unberbid a little, especially West.

 

I am going to assign blames for the missing game, opener (East) 10%, responder, 50%, 40% due to cards lie perfectly. I would raise to 3S as west.

 

The reasonable sequence would be

1S - 1N - 2S -3S- 4S.

[cherdano]

Looks to me like the only way for you to get there is for responder to upgrade his hand to 10 hcp. Seems pushy.

 

-- 1♠

1NT 2♠

3♥ 4♠

 

Assuming the 1NT denies a GF hand with 4 hearts.

You have to assume a lot more... Without discussion in 2/1, 3♥ shows lots of hearts, 6-11 pts. It gets a little better if you have discussed 1♠-3♥ and (wisely) decided that it is natural, either weak or invitational. Then 3♥ still shows lots of hearts, and the other range. But it's not a game try for spades.