how you bid from here to get to slam

[jocdelevat]

[hv=d=n&v=e&w=sak9765hk9754dcqt&e=s4haqjtdaj8532ca8]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -      Pass   1♦     Pass

 1♠   Pass   2♥    Pass

? 

 

 

Hi all

Me and my pard missed slam on this board and I do not know how to get there with these hands. First I thought splinter however I do not know if my pard bid 4d is splinter. We do not play strong jump shift. Maybe fourth suit forcing? Do my pard should rebid spades? I think I pass 2s if he do that.My pard bid 4h after my 2h which I pass.

 

thank you in advance for your advice

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

responder wants to create a forcing auction,

with hearts as agreed trump suit.

 

Depending on your agreement, you either

bid 3H direct (this implies that you play something

like Lebensohl after a reverse, i.e. a 2NT

response would be artifical - with all weak hands

going through 2NT) or you use 4th suit forcing.

 

After 3C by responder, if opener bids 3D, you

can bid 3H, asking for cue bids.

If he bids 3NT, showing a stopper, you know, he

has at least Kx in clubs, else opener would hold

a 0-4-5-4 shape, not impossible, but fairly unlikely,

hence you should be fairly safe bidding 6H, you wont

find 7H, but at least 6.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: 2S by responder may or may not be nonforcing,

the majority of americans posting on this forum play

that 2H promises another bid, but I would never risk this.

[whereagles]

I would start by bidding 3♥, which is forcing.

 

If you're not sure whether pard will take it as forcing, bid 3♣ and, after the likely 3♦ reply, follow-up with 3♥. Not that should REALLY be forcing beyond all doubts.

 

In case you're still afraid of a mix-up.. well, just take a shot at 6♥. On a good day pard will have a club control and you make it. On a bad day he doesn't but there's always the possibility of a defensive error :)

[temp3600]

I would bid 3♥ with responder's hand, which I play as 4(+) hearts and slam inviting. 4♥ would be 4+ hearts with a minimum hand.

 

I like this beginning :

1♦   1♠

2♥   3♥

4♣   5♦

...

with 5♦ exclusion blackwood.

 

I think standard for 4♦ is a hand with a very good diamond fit and a strong slam invite, as opposed to 3♦, which simply shows 3+ diamonds and is forward going.

 

2♠ can be played as forcing or non-forcing, so I wouldn't make this bid without a clear agreement.

[whereagles]

2♠ can be played as forcing or non-forcing, so I wouldn't make this bid without a clear agreement.

There's a good case for both agreements. However, playing weak jump shifts, the forcing version makes more sense.

[Apollo81]

I would sooner bid 7♥ with your pard's hand than 4♥.

 

Unfortunately, a lof of people don't understand bidding after reverses. If you think pard could pass a 3♥ raise,....try this:

 

1♦-1♠

2♥-3♣

3♦-3♥

4♣-4♠

5♦-5NT

7♥-pass

[mike777]

Agree, I think partner may pass 3H so I must start with 3clubs, 100% game force.

2s is a weak rebid and 5d over 2H is much too confusing so stuck with 3clubs 4sf and 100% game forcing.

[inquiry]

First, I play 1D-P-2H as showing weak hand with 5+spades and 4+ hearts. That will carry a little weight here, but is really basically immaterial. Some times I play 1D-p-2S as a bit better hand same shape, other times not. Either way (with any of these agreements or none of them), the bidding would start

 

1D-1S

2H-3H

 

3H here is absolutely GF and sets trumps. At this point, I would not "cuebid" my singleton spade, so the agreement and serious 3NT will not apply as we are clearly in slam zone on this auction. In addition, if I were to bid spades, it would be patterning out. So with opener, I would cue-bid 4C. In fact, I think a 3NT bid here (well, I would reverse 3S and 3NT, but you get the drift) would DENY a club control. So auction would continue

 

4C-?

 

At this point, 4D is last train, and specifically promises a spade control. The jump suggested above to 5♦ as excusion is sort of cute too if partner would read it. I think if I could trust partner to read 5♦ that might be my bid. But a (yucky) 4NT RKCB is probably not a bad continuation. Lets assume 4NT

 

..... .4NT

5C-5D

6H-?

 

Where 5C is 0 or 3 (Kantar rules), 5D ask for trump queen, 6H shows the trump queen, no side suit king.

 

It seems that we might make seven. Partner will surely have five plus diamonds, 4 plus hearts. He also knows he can ruff spades in my hand. Thus, we might be able to set up spades with two ruffs, but we don't know about the ten and jack of hearts. We are at least at a point where we can make an educated decision on bid or pass. At matchpoints I would shoot 7♥, at imps I would probably wimp out and pass.

[mikeh]

While I understand the idea of bidding 3♣ out of fear that partner might pass 3♥, 3♥ is still the technically correct bid and the one that should be made. If partner passes, either find a new partner or (the preferred option)explain to partner that in standard bidding 3♥ is forcing. The beauty of playing a good grand in a partscore is that the lesson usually sticks. Note how easy the bidding becomes after 3♥: opener cues 4♣ (not 3♠.. don't cue shortness in partner's 5+ suit as your first cue) and now responder has several options. I wouldn't use exclusion even if available since it is more likely that partner has the ♦A than that he holds the ♣K (he has longer ♦s than ♣s), and the ♦A is an important card. So I'd just bid keycard and then, probably, 5N to invite the grand. I don't think I'd actually bid the grand, since x AQxx AQJxx AJx is consistent with the auction and is not a great hand for 7 due to communication problems and the lack of the trump J.

 

Admittedly, this is an area in which B/I players often flounder... to the point that some players will even announce "we don't play reverses". Many of those who do, do not know how to follow up.

[jtfanclub]

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand bidding after reverses.

I admit, I don't understand bidding after reverses.

 

Take the same auction, and the same hand for partner. You have:

 

♠ KJTxx ♥ Txx ♦ x ♣ xxxx

 

Partner opens 1 ♦. If you'd pass, well, congratulations, you're a lot more disciplined than I am. If the auction goes:

 

1♦ 1♠

2♥

 

What would you say?

 

(I've been told that reverses are forcing, though I cannot imagine why.)

 

How about

 

♠ KJTxx ♥ Txx ♦ x ♣ Kxxx

 

It seems like the 'slam-try' auctions overlap with what I would hve said.

[bid_em_up]

Agree, I think partner may pass 3H so I must start with 3clubs, 100% game force.

2s is a weak rebid and 5d over 2H is much too confusing so stuck with 3clubs 4sf and 100% game forcing.

This is why people play leb after reverses. When playing this, any bid after a reverse other than 2N (which forces 3C) is 100% forcing.

 

examples;

 

1♦-1♠-2♥-3♣ still 4SF.

1♦-1♠-2♥-3♦ agrees diamonds and game forcing (no 2N relay).

1♦-1♠-2♥-3♥ agrees hearts, better than minimum hand (should have some slam interest)

1♦-1♠-2♥-4♥ good heart fit, no slam interest.

 

 

1♦-1♠-2♥-2NT-3♣ (forced by 2N)-3♦ weak hand, can be doubleton diamond.

 

It's open to debate whether or not the sequence:

 

1♦-1♠-2♥-2♠ is forcing or not. Most will say that it has to be. However, if you dont play weak jump shifts (which I don't), you can't bid 1♦-2♠ on a weak hand with long spades. The solution was to make this sequence non-forcing.

[bid_em_up]

I admit, I don't understand bidding after reverses.

 

Take the same auction, and the same hand for partner.  You have:

 

♠ KJTxx ♥ Txx  ♦ x  ♣ xxxx

 

Partner opens 1 ♦.  If you'd pass, well, congratulations, you're a lot more disciplined than I am.  If the auction goes:

 

1♦-1♠-2♥

 

What would you say? 

 

(I've been told that reverses are forcing, though I cannot imagine why.)

 

How about

 

♠ KJTxx ♥ Txx  ♦ x  ♣ Kxxx

 

It seems like the 'slam-try' auctions overlap with what I would hve said.

Reverses are forcing because they imply extra values, "force" you to take preference to partners original suit at a higher level, and (assuming you have the 5+ hcp normally required for a response at the one level) there should be some play for game. Of course, this does not always hold true.

 

Hand one, I pass 2H. It is probably your last chance to get out for a positive score.

 

Hand two, I rebid 2N. I want to hear if partner breaks the relay to 3C. I will bid 3♥ over 3♣ if he does not break the relay. This must be forcing with only 3 hearts and no more than two diamonds (and most likely, 5 spades). Why? With a forcing hand and 3 diamonds, you could simply bid 3D over 2H. So you have no more than 2 diamonds. With 4 hearts, you could have raised 2H to 3H/4H. So you have no more than 5 red cards. With 3 hearts and bad hand, you would have passed two hearts (as in hand one).

[mike777]

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand bidding after reverses.

I admit, I don't understand bidding after reverses.

 

Take the same auction, and the same hand for partner. You have:

 

♠ KJTxx ♥ Txx ♦ x ♣ xxxx

 

Partner opens 1 ♦. If you'd pass, well, congratulations, you're a lot more disciplined than I am. If the auction goes:

 

1♦ 1♠

2♥

 

What would you say?

 

(I've been told that reverses are forcing, though I cannot imagine why.)

 

How about

 

♠ KJTxx ♥ Txx ♦ x ♣ Kxxx

 

It seems like the 'slam-try' auctions overlap with what I would hve said.

Playing "Structrured Reverses" Root Pavlickek you rebid 2s showing 5s spades and a minimum hand. Minimum hand is up to about 9 hcp.

With only 4 spades and no support you rebid 2nt.

Both bids still force a rebid from partner but show a weak, minimum hand from you.

[mike777]

I should add if you play reverse flannery over 1 minor openings then:

 

1d=1s

2h=3h=100% game forcing since you cannot have a weakish hand with 5s and 4H.

[P_Marlowe]

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand bidding after reverses.

I admit, I don't understand bidding after reverses.

 

Take the same auction, and the same hand for partner. You have:

 

♠ KJTxx ♥ Txx ♦ x ♣ xxxx

 

Partner opens 1 ♦. If you'd pass, well, congratulations, you're a lot more disciplined than I am. If the auction goes:

 

1♦ 1♠

2♥

 

What would you say?

 

(I've been told that reverses are forcing, though I cannot imagine why.)

 

How about

 

♠ KJTxx ♥ Txx ♦ x ♣ Kxxx

 

It seems like the 'slam-try' auctions overlap with what I would hve said.

Hi,

 

a reverse is forcing, i.e. passing is out of the question,

if your hand was worth a response, you cant pass now.

 

With both hands, you should bid 2S.

With the 2nd one, you could bid 2NT, in case it is natural,

... usually 2NT is convetional.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mikeh]

I am working on what will be my longest post ever: a summary of reversing as played in NA.... ok.... as I understand it to be played on NA is a more accurate description. It will be limited to 1x 1y 2z auctions where xyz are suits and z is higher than x: so it won't deal with 2/1 responses or 'high-level reverses' or jumpshifts etc. Not that I don't have ideas on those, but I want to finish the post in my lifetime.

[goobers]

Ooh, can't wait to see it if it ever comes out, mikeh.

 

Right now I'm just playing structured reverses too... I hate reverse auctions.

[kenrexford]

If I am forced to start...

 

1♦-1♠

2♥

 

...an aggressive reverse, I'll then bid...

 

3♥

 

...setting trumps, GF. Now. Opener cannot have serious interest with that terrible mess he reversed on, so...

 

4♣

 

This is enough for Responder to move. With void-Qx in the minors, either the club King OR the diamond Ace will be nice for the grand, so I would not bid Exclusion (5♦). Rather, I would simply use 1430 RKCB...

 

4NT-5♦

 

...Contextually, this better be three. So, I can ask for the trump Queen with...

 

5♥

 

...Opener has it, but no Kings. He could show any King by bidding that suit, so he saves space with...

 

5NT

 

With no side King, this reverse must be shapely. With 6-2 in the black suits, I'll gamble on spades not being xxx without the Queen and bid the grand. If Opener has bid 6♥ instead of 5NT, same analysis and same grand.

[Guest Jlall]

stuff

 

please this is the beginner forum.

 

The key is that west should realize that they have a great hand, a slam force opposite a reverse (that has a club control). If you play a raise to 3H over 2H as NF then you should start with 3C to create a GF. then you can raise hearts, and see if partner can cuebid clubs for you.

[Apollo81]

While I understand the idea of bidding 3♣ out of fear that partner might pass 3♥, 3♥ is still the technically correct bid and the one that should be made. If partner passes, either find a new partner or (the preferred option)explain to partner that in standard bidding 3♥ is forcing.

I've spent enough time playing with students/clients to know that people are generally happier if you make the safe bid at the table and discuss the "right" bid after the hand is over. (At least in the cases where you have a safe alternative like this one)

 

This is "beginner and intermediate bridge discussion," I think it's reasonable to assume that a poster's partner might not know that a raise is forcing here.

 

I am basically disagreeing with the assertion that the right bid is the one that should be made at the table.

[goobers]

So what would the 'safe' bid be here? 4H? 6H?

[Apollo81]

So what would the 'safe' bid be here?  4H?  6H?

3♣ is safe

[kenrexford]

stuff

 

please this is the beginner forum.

 

The key is that west should realize that they have a great hand, a slam force opposite a reverse (that has a club control). If you play a raise to 3H over 2H as NF then you should start with 3C to create a GF. then you can raise hearts, and see if partner can cuebid clubs for you.

Oops. You are right. I missed that when reading all the posts about cuebidding and Exclusion.

 

:rolleyes: