Showing both Majors

[the hog]

I play both of these sequences as forcing:

 

1H 1S

2S 3H

 

1S 2H

3H 3S

 

I would like to know how people play the follow ups, with particular reference to these questions:

 

* In both of the above sequences is 3NT Serious? If so, is it definitely the last suit that is agreed as the trump suit?

 

* What does a bid of 4 of either M show?

 

1H 1S

2S 3H

3S?

* Does this show a 4th S, or is it a cue bid in support of H? (We currently play it as showing a 4th S, as we do not play Flannery or Kaplan Inversion, and we would raise to 2S on say Hxx xxxxx xxx xx where xx is a rag doubleton, and also on

Kxx AKQxx xxxx x or similar.)

 

* Does anyone play a form of KC which shows hons in both suits? If so, what are the advs/disadvs of this approach cf normal KC?

[kenrexford]

For me, these are much different auctions.

 

1♥-P-1♠-P-

2♠-P-3♥-P-

4M?

 

In this auction, although 2♠ usually shows four spades, that is not guaranteed. Further, although I usually would raise hearts immediately, I might have five spades or some other reason to bid spades first with invitational values.

 

Thus, although spades are almost always 4-4, with 5-3 or 5-4 also likely, a 4-3 is possible in theory. So, 3♥ would be game invitational, with heart support and with Opener invited to bid 4♠ instead if he actually has four spades.

 

This could also be the start of a slam move, BTW. Will clarify that later if can.

 

3NT would be serious. The only route to 3NT after a passable bid-and-raise for me is to start with a 2NT game try. Any new suit by Opener would be a cue, as would a new suit by Responder. This is nearly a "flag bid" auction, where, for instance, 4♣ would be a "strong" move agreeing hearts and 4♦ a "strong" move agreeing spades. But, not quite.

 

A 3♠ call by Opener would decline the game try but confirm a fourth spade.

 

1♠-P-2♥-P-

3♥-P-3♠-P-

4M?

 

Here, hearts is the agreed trump suit, period. 3♠ would not show spade support; it would simply show one of the top three spades. I might have, for example, ♠Kx ♥AKQxx ♦xxx ♣xxx. Nore radically, I might even have as "weak" as the stiff spade Queen.

 

After this start:

 

4♥ by Opener would show:

 

1. No club control

2. No diamond control

3. Probably not great trumps (might bid 3NT Serious with AKQx of hearts, notwithstanding the lack of any minor controls).

 

4♠ by Opener would be RKCB, except that Responder should show the King of Spades as the fifth control, instead of the heart King, and the Queen of spades as the Queen of trumps instead of the heart Queen. Typically, this means that Opener has the heart King and Queen of hearts but needs to know about spade secondaries and Aces.

 

In any event, 3NT would be serious.

 

I have no method for 6KCB that I use, personally. Rather, I use this "switch the secondaries" RKCB. This decision is based in part on the reality that many auctions using my approach answer the trump-honors question before game, such that 6KCB would be redundant as to the agreed trump suit, whereas the complete picture in a critical side suit might be needed and not as easily shown before bypassing game. That's the advantage.

 

The disadvantages to this method would be one more chance to lead-direct with a double (or silence), remembering what the bid means, and handling situations when you actually do need to know about trumps AND the side suit.

[dake50]

Curious one, seems here that a serious 3NT should have a 6RKC implication: without my 3 of 6 in majors, signoff; with 3, cue minor control. Or similar. Don't serious 3NT without 3 tops in majors.

[inquiry]

I will only talk about the second auction, because for me the first auction is not what it sounds like.

 

The second auction is game force, two suit agreement. 3NT is serious (or frivilious, depending upon which partner I play with). And this is a two suit agreement, so that six keycard blackwood is in effect. Read Kantars Roman KeyCard Blackwood book for details.

 

The first auction, is not what it seems. For 1H-1S, the 1S bid show four or less spades. 2S raise shows six hearts and FIVE spades (don't ask why unless you are a massocist), 3H is not forcing and is certainly on a weak hand with a doubleton heart and no seven card minor, and probably just one spade. and the bid is clearly not forcing. Like I said, it is probably best not to ask, but I can explain if you like.

[kenrexford]

The second auction is game force, two suit agreement. 3NT is serious (or frivilious, depending upon which partner I play with). And this is a two suit agreement, so that six keycard blackwood is in effect. Read Kantars Roman KeyCard Blackwood book for details.

Ben,

 

If 3♠ establishes two-suit agreement, what would you bid with Kx-AKQxx-xxx-xxx? Or, KQ-AKQxx-xxx-xxx? Or, K-AKQxxx-xxx-xxx?

 

How do you handle the problem that there is no method for either partner to say anything about spades below 4♥ if Responder, after 3♥, can only bid 3♠ with three of them?

 

I'm trying to understand the techniques. Does 3NT by Responder imply good spade stuff but no fit?

[inquiry]

The second auction is game force, two suit agreement. 3NT is serious  (or frivilious, depending upon which partner I play with). And this is a two suit agreement, so that six keycard blackwood is in effect. Read Kantars Roman KeyCard Blackwood book for details.

Ben,

 

If 3♠ establishes two-suit agreement, what would you bid with Kx-AKQxx-xxx-xxx? Or, KQ-AKQxx-xxx-xxx? Or, K-AKQxxx-xxx-xxx?

 

How do you handle the problem that there is no method for either partner to say anything about spades below 4♥ if Responder, after 3♥, can only bid 3♠ with three of them?

I would bid 4♥ on each of these.

 

With the first hand, when playing Serious 3NT, this bid shows minimum game forcing values, inability to cue-bid either minor (which I would do wiht Ace, King, singleton, or void). So partnre knows I have at least 2-2 in the minors and lack support for spades. When playing friviolous 3NT, I would still bid 4♥, but this time showing some modest slam ambition, but still no minor contols (which works out better on this hand).

 

With the second hand, I would treat KQ as "spade support" and bid 3♠. KQ doubleton is better than xxx. and 2♥ did promise at least five. I bid 3♠ no matter if 3NT is serious or not. With the third hand, I will return to bid 4♥.

 

As to...

I'm trying to understand the techniques.  Does 3NT by Responder imply good spade stuff but no fit?

 

3NT by responder (over 3♥) playing serious 3NT says nothing about spades, but does suggest a slam interest, with or without a spade control. BTW whenever hearts are raised to 3 in GF auction, I always prefer to switch the meaning of 3♠ and 3NT, so on auctions WHERE 3♠ would be cue-bid, 3NT is now the spade cue-bid and DENIES serious slam interest playing serious 3NT, or promises slam interst if playing frivilious 3NT).

 

I find two suit agreement MORE valuable than the cue-bid on these auctions.

[brianshark]

On the first, I consider 3♥ just a game try with support. On the second, with my regular p, 3♠ is not necessarily support, we treat ♥s as the agreed suit and 3♠ as a cue-bid (which therefore mean it can be Qx, Kx or Ax) and serious 3NT, cue bids, etc are on.

[kenrexford]

Ben, a follow-up or two or three.

 

1. If you would bid 4♥ with Kx-AKQxx-xxx-xxx, would you also bid 4♥ with Jx-AKxxx-QJx-QJx? That seems like quite a range.

 

2. What is the gain for Opener knowing that you have three spades of any type, as opposed to an honor, if he has AKJxx? Or, whatever he has. If 3♠ shows three to an honor, then how often does that third spade really come in handy, on the short side of the side suit?

 

3. When the double fit is established, what is the partnership agreement as to the "focus" suit. In other words, is 4♥ a cuebid or a signoff or LTTC for spades? If 4♠ a signoff or a cuebid or something else as to hearts?

 

One last question, from a funny story. You elect to bid 4♥ with Kx-AKQxx-xxx-xxx, because 3♠ would promise three-card support. Partner now bids 5♥. What do you do?

[pclayton]

1. 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♠ - 3♥

 

For me, all game tries after 1x - 1y - 2y flow through 2N, so 3 of anything is a probe for slam; generally with values in the suit bid. Frivolous 3♠/3N is on; shows a weak hand for the auction to date but promises an outside control.

 

4 of either major denies the ability to cue; so it implies good trump.

 

2. 1♠ - 2♥ - 3♥ - 3♠ (unfortunately) is frivolous by agreement. With both majors, we don't stop off and suggest an alternative trump suit.

[inquiry]

Ben, a follow-up or two or three.

 

1. If you would bid 4♥ with Kx-AKQxx-xxx-xxx, would you also bid 4♥ with Jx-AKxxx-QJx-QJx? That seems like quite a range.

 

2. What is the gain for Opener knowing that you have three spades of any type, as opposed to an honor, if he has AKJxx? Or, whatever he has. If 3♠ shows three to an honor, then how often does that third spade really come in handy, on the short side of the side suit?

 

3. When the double fit is established, what is the partnership agreement as to the "focus" suit. In other words, is 4♥ a cuebid or a signoff or LTTC for spades? If 4♠ a signoff or a cuebid or something else as to hearts?

 

One last question, from a funny story. You elect to bid 4♥ with Kx-AKQxx-xxx-xxx, because 3♠ would promise three-card support. Partner now bids 5♥. What do you do?

No. I would open that 1NT (14-16). Remove a jack (say in spades) I would rebid 4♥.

 

2. What is the gain for Opener knowing that you have three spades of any type, as opposed to an honor, if he has AKJxx? Or, whatever he has. If 3♠ shows three to an honor, then how often does that third spade really come in handy, on the short side of the side suit?

 

Partner will know several things. First, at least 8 of my cards are in the majors. Second, I didn't open 1NT so if I am 3532, I will not have 14-16 hcp. The door is open for partner to express or deny slam interest now, so the bidding can proceed with us having some sense of direction..

 

3. When the double fit is established, what is the partnership agreement as to the "focus" suit. In other words, is 4♥ a cuebid or a signoff or LTTC for spades? If 4♠ a signoff or a cuebid or something else as to hearts?

 

Both 4♥ and 4♠ are natural.

 

One last question, from a funny story. You elect to bid 4♥ with Kx-AKQxx-xxx-xxx, because 3♠ would promise three-card support. Partner now bids 5♥. What do you do?

 

Simple Answer is I will bid 6♥. There is a RKC reason for this. But first lets assume my partner is not clever enough to think about the RKC answer, what I might I do?

 

For this answer, I will assume I am playing serious 3NT (not bid). Partner is looking for slam when I hold second round control of spades, All the top hearts, and have denied so much as a control in either minor (first or second). In this case, I will cue-bid 5NT as a grand slam try. This can not be "pick slam" because there is not two strains in competition here. This can not spade ACE as I would bid 5♠. This has to be a grand slam try. What else can it be. It must be spade control. Without a spade control, I would have cue-bid a thrid round minor suit control, or 6♥. If over 5NT partner cue-bids a minor suit something, I bid the grand as I can't have any side ACE.

 

But for the record, if this hand is good enough for grand slam, partner could have discovered that via BLACKWOOD. The auction after 4♥

 

4NT-5♠-5NT-7♥

 

4NT was RKCB, 5♠ = 2 key cards plus heart queen, 5NT attempt at grand slam where I have already denied high card control in either minor or distibutional control in either minor. This has to ask for spade king. QED

[kenrexford]

Ben:

 

What if you wre an unpassed hand? Now, you cannot "open 1NT" because partner opened first.

[inquiry]

Ben:

 

What if you wre an unpassed hand? Now, you cannot "open 1NT" because partner opened first.

Correct you are, but I still rebid 4♥. Partner has a lot of major cards on this auction, how good can my minor suit Queens/jack's be. Playing frivilious 3NT, at least this 4♥ promises some really good values in hearts.

[mikeh]

I don't play serious notrump... at least, not as it is usually played. I use , in an auction in which we have a 9 card fit established or a 2-suit fit... auctions in which 3N is thus unlikely... to announce a hand with slam interest but lacking a ♣ control. Partner will not cooperate without a club control.

 

This may seem low frequency, but can be very effective. Not only does it identify a potential weakness at a low level, but it also conserves bidding space in many situations. While I don't like giving away a lot of info to the opps, slam exploration is one area where the cost of concealment outweighs the gain.

 

With that off my chest, in the first auction, I would play 3♥ as forcing one round on the basis that we are not bidding to improve the partscore, certainly not by moving it one level higher. It sounds like a limit raise or better with 5♠s. I'd allow a pass of 3♠, but we are not playing 3♥. If I wanted to offer a chance to play 3♥, I wouldn't/shouldn't have bid 1♠.

 

Bids by opener beyond 3♠ are cues, with 3N having the meaning above, catering to responder being strong. This is not a situation for shape showing, in my view.

 

In the second auction, we are in a gf auction already, so new suits are cues and 3N is as above.

 

All of these comments re the meaning of bids would be the same (mutatis mutandis) if we played a more common form of serious 3N.