(1S)-2H-(2S)-DBL

[kgr]

Bidding goes:

(1S)-2H-(2S)-DBL

You play take-out DBL's. What does the DBL show:

- Limit raise in H

or

- can support all suits; eg: 1=2=4=5 (but what to bid then after (1S)-2H-(2S)-DBL-(3S).. ? )

 

What do you prefer here and would you prefer to make a difference between MP's and IMP's?

 

Thanks,

Koen

[han]

I prefer to play this double as responsive: values, denies heart support, not to many spades. Maybe this is a reasonable hand:

 

xx xx Axxxx QJxx.

 

1+2+4+5 = 12.

 

With the above hand I would pass over 3S. In fact, I'd be happy to have bid my hand already.

 

I don't fundamentally change the meaning of calls depending on the form of scoring, but the call I choose with a given hand might differ.

[jtfanclub]

Bidding goes:

(1S)-2H-(2S)-DBL

You play take-out DBL's. What does the DBL show:

- Limit raise in H

or

- can support all suits; eg: 1=2=4=5 (but what to bid then after (1S)-2H-(2S)-DBL-(3S).. ? )

 

What do you prefer here and would you prefer to make a difference between MP's and IMP's?

 

Thanks,

Koen

I like it to show values, does *not* deny heart support, 10+ hcp. 3♥ directly would be pre-emptive, an X waiting for partner to bid something and then correcting to 3♥ shows a hand that can absolutely make 3, and should make 4 if partner has any extra.

 

I don't play with anybody at the moment that this:

 

1♠-2♥-2♠-X

4♠-

 

is a forcing pass situation (assuming that we don't overcall 2/1 without a 6 card suit or 2 defensive tricks), and yet, logically to me that would be the best use for the X. Go figure.

[Guest Jlall]

takeout

[the hog]

We play this a little differently -

X = takeout as well - both m suits, but specifically Hx in H.

With a takeout and no Hx in H we bid 2NT.

[pbleighton]

"I prefer to play this double as responsive: values, denies heart support, not to many spades. Maybe this is a reasonable hand:

 

xx xx Axxxx QJxx."

 

Agree, but I like the hand to be a little better.

 

Peter

[han]

I think this would be a minimum for me, but I'd double with that 7-count. I expect partner to pass out 2S with many of the hands that we should be competing with.

 

I'd gladly here if other people think I need quite a bit more to double.

[jtfanclub]

So...what do you guys do with xx QJxx xx AJTxx?

[the hog]

So...what do you guys do with xx QJxx xx AJTxx?

Uh, raise H or make a fnj if playing that. Are you sure you meant that hand? Pd did overcall in H.

[jtfanclub]

So...what do you guys do with xx QJxx xx AJTxx?

Uh, raise H or make a fnj if playing that. Are you sure you meant that hand? Pd did overcall in H.

Well, OK, if you have fnj's you have no problems. But if you don't, do you raise to 3, which will sound pre-emptive and probably get passed out, or do you bid 4, which may be an overbid?

 

I normally use the X the same way everybody else does, but I also use 'X and correct' back to 3♥ to show a 3.5♥ bid. That's pretty standard in this area...I honestly didn't realize that wasn't standard all over.

[gwnn]

I think nothing is "standard all over" B)

[the hog]

So...what do you guys do with xx QJxx xx AJTxx?

Uh, raise H or make a fnj if playing that. Are you sure you meant that hand? Pd did overcall in H.

Well, OK, if you have fnj's you have no problems. But if you don't, do you raise to 3, which will sound pre-emptive and probably get passed out, or do you bid 4, which may be an overbid?

 

I normally use the X the same way everybody else does, but I also use 'X and correct' back to 3♥ to show a 3.5♥ bid. That's pretty standard in this area...I honestly didn't realize that wasn't standard all over.

I would say that that treatment is definitely non standard. If anything, the X would certainly deny the sort of H support that you have posted. There is very little point in playing the bid of 3H as pre emptive as the opps have already found their fit. If not playing fnjs I would bid 3H nv which is invit, and 4H vul.

 

The other possibility is to forgo the X showing Hx in H, play that as t/o and play the 2NT bid as a good raise; after all how often do you want to play NT after the opps have bid and raised a suit, and secondly 2NT as natural is silly as you are unlikely to make exactly 8 tricks.

[Free]

I prefer takeout, with a bit of tolerance for ♥. Works great imo.

[kgr]

(1S)-2H-(2S)-??

At MP's I prefer 3H to be competitive. (Maybe 3H makes or -1 and 3S is -1).

I also prefer to play that DBL followed by 3H shows a limit raise in H, but then you have a problem if opps raise to 3S before it comes back to you.

Another issue with this treatment is that partner does not know if you have takeout or limit raise in H. So, with a mimimal hand: should he bid 3H or a 4-card minor?

 

Maybe it is a good idea to play?:

- DBL: Limit raise for H

- 2NT: takeout.

- 3H: competitive

[Free]

I prefer to keep 2NT for support. So why not use 2NT as limit raise with 3+ card support if you can't cuebid?

[han]

I use 2NT and 3C as natural here (both NF), call me crazy if you want to.

 

3H is not preemptive, it's not a weak bid. It shows less than invitational values, I think xx QJxx xx AJ10xx is close to a maximum 3H bid.

 

With an invitation I would bid game. Hopefully they decide to sac in 4S when it's wrong.

[Guest Jlall]

3m non forcing is interesting, I have always played those as forcing. I think forcing is more useful overall but non forcing could definitely help with some hands.

 

2N as a cuebid is interesting as well, I think I like that a lot actually.

 

I'm sure with the xx QJxx xx AJTxx I would drive to game whether they bid or not but there are lots of hands I would like to be able to have a cuebid available with.

 

How about transfers? Then we can have NF and forcing bids for the minors (2N/3C transfers), 3D as a cuebid and 3H as constructive.

[Free]

Transfers don't have the advantage FNJ's have. I prefer 3m natural and fit showing. However, if you use transfers, it doesn't need fit (unless you play the transfers as fit showing as well). Both methods work, but transfers may give additional lead direction doubles away... Keep it simple :unsure:

[awm]

I've found that opponents occasionally bid 2♠ on air in this particular auction. I'd be leery of any method where there's no easy way to show a good hand without a good fit. Playing 3m as a fit non-jump or as NF here would seem to create some problems in this regard. On the other hand there is probably not so much lost by playing an artificial 2NT bid, since most of the natural 2NT hands can either pass and expect a balance (holding 4♠ typically) or raise hearts or double for takeout (even if slightly off-shape). Transfers seem like a fairly good treatment although it'd be nice to have a general rule about this (enumerating all specific auctions and deciding whether to play transfers or natural bids in competition is not practical).

[inquiry]

Pass-(1S)-2H-(2S)-? yes, 3m is fit non-jump, we can agree there and move on.

 

(1S)-2H-(2S)-? 4 of a minor is a fit jump, we can agree and move on (or splinter)

 

(1S)-2H-(2S)-? 3 of a minor? No, I don't think fit jump is best use here, and if it is game forcing, it should pretty much deny a good fit unless terrifically strong and planning on forcing to slam. I play this as "almost surely forcing" . I say almost surely forcing, because to be honest, my partners have passed quite a few times on this auction. I didn't expect them too. With a hand I want to bid a minor but not enough "stuff" I double and hope for the best.. With diamonds, best usually happens, if partner bids 3♣, I rebid 3♦. If partner rebids 3♥, then his hearts are ok. With clubs, I hope to have Hx or in a pinch xx in hearts, and I can bid 3♥ over 3♦. Partner will not get excited.

 

I have seen people use 2NT like lebehnshol here, I don't think that is the best use. I play this 2NT as limit raise or better in hearts, and direct 3♥ as competitive. I like double as responsive. I don't mind 2NT as natural, nor do I mind DBL as transfer. It is just a matter of agreement. But for the life of me, 3m as FNJ by unpassed hand just doesn't make sense to me.