Who did most wrong?

[Helmer]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sj8hqj9daj865ca102&s=sq1097hk752dk972c5]133|200|Scoring: MP

West opened 1 ♠

North takeout double

South 3 ♥ (9-11)

West 5 ♣

North 5 ♥

and doubled -800 [/hv]

 

-800 a bad result, though 5♣ might have a little chance to win.

 

Who is to "blame" for this bad score?

[pclayton]

North 90%; South 40%.

[Apollo81]

I'm gonna go with 66% North 33% South

 

Both the 3♥ and 5♥ bids are ridiculous, but North's bid is more so.

 

South is about a king off from 3♥ and North.....5 over 5 is usually wrong even with some shape.....North has none.

[brianshark]

I don't like any of these bids, but in ascending order of badness:

 

Dbl = 2% of the overall blame (I don't see why not just bid 2♦ - partner can show a 5 card ♥ suit if he has values - but I don't mind this so much and plenty of good players will disagree with me too)

3♥ = 18% of the overall blame (A King too light as was said already - it's just plain stupid)

5♥ = 80% of the overall blame (You've already implied 4 ♥s, so with one fewer ♥, nice trumps (♣s), a minimum t/o double and defensive values... he decides to compete on the 5 level?)

 

How can 5♣s make? Where are their tricks?

[helene_t]

The dbl is fine, IMHO. 2♦ with this lousy suit might be just acceptable when nonvulnerable.

 

3♥ is not good. The spade values are not worth much in offense and the club singleton is not worth much since a club finese is likely to work anyway. 1NT would be my bid although 2♥ is acceptable.

 

5♥ is absolutely insane. Even if North had passed 5♣, he would still get his share of the blame if South competed with 5♦ over 5♣. He absolutely has to double 5♣ to diiscourage South from bidding further.

[mike777]

Really dislike double by North. I would just pass with this hand. Partner is an unpassed hand.

 

I do not understand 5H at all.

[jtfanclub]

0% fault on both sides...they both deserve each other.

 

I have jumped aften an X with an 8 count, and I have done it with a 4 card suit, but I have never done it with an 8 count AND a 4 card suit.

 

As North, I would have passed 3♥...I have a rotgut minimum. Considering that I wouldn't have gone to the 4 level, going to the 5 level is insane.

 

Please tell me you were West.

[hotShot]

Well there seems to be one reasonable bid in this auction: 1♠.

Every other bid is .... substandard.

 

Well what is dbl: shape, major(s) or strength?

Well the shape is wrong, the strength is borderline and it's not the other major.

 

3♥ is a fine bid, if dbl is promising a 4+ hears. Shortage in ♣, ♠QT97 behind the ♠auction and 8 HCP should be equivalent to the 9-11 agreement.

But what if the X does not promise 4 heats? Well than 1 NT is the bid of choice.

 

5♥ is *beeeeep* and *BEEEEEP*. Where is the 4th ♥, partner promised a point range not extra length.

 

Did you know that is illegal, that both player of a partnership use a different bidding systems? And as we see here, it won't be successful.

[jtfanclub]

How can 5♣s make? Where are their tricks?

I'm going to guess that opener was 6-2-0-5. Two spades, two spade ruffs in dummy, draw trumps, and run the rest of the spades, losing a heart and a club. Opening lead of a small club (not the ace) might cause enough problems to set it.

 

In another post I missed before posting my other one. I wouldn't X 5♣. I have one fewer defensive tricks in the two spades instead of one, but one more because of the club. We're not in a forcing auction, and if partner bids 5♥, we may very well make it.

[Guest Jlall]

5H is an lol... north is smoking some good stuff.

 

I would give north 90 % even though I would not bid 3H it's certainly at least in the realm of possibility and in relation to the 5H bid is close to the best bid ever made.

[Fluffy]

IMHO X is 100% correct

3♥ is an option from many not good ones and can't be blamed

5♥ then collects all the money price.

[Fluffy]

Well there seems to be one reasonable bid in this auction: 1♠.

Every other bid is .... substandard.

don't blame 5 clubs without seeing the full hand ;), also there are several East's bids that seem pretty good, specially the last pass :D

[Guest Jlall]

I think X would be a near unanimous choice (if not unanimous) in master solvers club. There is nothing wrong with this X and if you are not Xing with these hands you are not up with modern bridge and not getting in enough. Even 4333 Xs are becoming routine (but still debatable), I can't imagine anything wrong with this one. You have good support for all other suits, short spades, and an opening bid. If you don't bid now you will likely never get into the auction. Pass is extremely dangerous.

[bid_em_up]

I give North 75%, only because there is no option between 75 and 100. He is closer to 100 than 75 though.....

 

90/10 is appropriate, imo, however.

 

The initial X is fine, see Justins explanation.

 

3H is an overbid, imo and this is where South earns his 10% of the blame. The spade Q is not carrying any weight whatsoever. With a 5th heart, 3H becomes a little closer with the compensating club shortness, but light values + shorter trumps is asking for disaster when you bid 3H.

 

5H draws the rest of the blame. No extra values, missing the 4th trump, no compensating distribution, etc. etc.

 

Please dont tell us North is trying to defend his/her bid.....

 

(And if you were North, don't admit it. At least not in public) ;)

[jdonn]

South gets 100%. 15% for his overbid, and 85% for agreeing to play with a novice.

[cherdano]

Why are you asking this question, Helmer? North raises a suit to the 5-level where he has LESS support than expected on average, you play bridge well enough to know this is non-sense.

 

Of course, double of 1♠ is entirely normal. I would not bid 3♥ myself.

[inquiry]

North gets most of the blame for the one-man show bid of 5♥. South's 3♥ was an overbid, but not nearly as bad as 5♥. So of the choices, I went 75% north.

[mycroft]

South gets 100%. 15% for his overbid, and 85% for agreeing to play with a novice.

s/novice/psychotic/

[whereagles]

All is ok except 5♥, which is completely misjudged.

[kenrexford]

I have to give North a little more credit than anyone has given him. 5♥ is not quite insane, even if it is a tad wild.

 

I would expect that 1♠-X-P-3♥ shows more than simply 9-11. If the double is OK with three hearts, then perhaps 3♥ suggests a five-card suit.

 

If this is true, North can count 11 tricks if things are where he thinks. A reasonable hand he visualizes is something like xx-AKxxx-Kxx-xxx, perhaps. Removing the diamond King for the Queen might still yield a make if the diamonds come in.

 

North also is recognizing that the concentration of values suggested by the leap to 5♣, and lack of defense, suggests that this layout is reasonable to expect.

 

North also is recognizing that his club holding, Ace-empty instead of slow values, as well as his unknown fifth diamond, possibly the unknown 11th trick, may justify his being aggressive.

 

This all seems to rely on diamonds coming in with a finesse. Maybe Opener holds something like AKQxx-x-Kx-KQJxx (from North's perspective)?

 

So, although I think that North made quite a leap and took quite a long view of this hand, I would not criticize the call as complete insanity. When a simple xx-AKxxx-Qxx-xxx makes 5♥ a fair contract, North's decision has a chance to be right.

[mike777]

I think X would be a near unanimous choice (if not unanimous) in master solvers club. There is nothing wrong with this X and if you are not Xing with these hands you are not up with modern bridge and not getting in enough. Even 4333 Xs are becoming routine (but still debatable), I can't imagine anything wrong with this one. You have good support for all other suits, short spades, and an opening bid. If you don't bid now you will likely never get into the auction. Pass is extremely dangerous.

suit's not good enough to overcall....

dont have enough points or hearts for a double.....

 

Justin would know better than I what the vast majority would do with this hand but I am surprised all or almost all would x. Does everyone agree?

[jtfanclub]

I would expect that 1♠-X-P-3♥ shows more than simply 9-11. If the double is OK with three hearts, then perhaps 3♥ suggests a five-card suit.

 

A reasonable hand he visualizes is something like xx-AKxxx-Kxx-xxx, perhaps.

Do you expect 5♥ to make across that? I'd call it considerably less than 50%. This is MPs, to boot- if it's less than 50%, you don't want to be there.

 

In contrast, you look pretty good for three red tricks and a club. Sure 300 vs. a very unsure 450...no thanks.

 

This all seems to rely on diamonds coming in with a finesse.  Maybe Opener holds something like AKQxx-x-Kx-KQJxx (from North's perspective)?

 

You would bid 5♣ with this?! Yeesh. Why wouldn't you just bid 4♣?

 

Opener should be, at a minimum, 5-2-0-6, with no defense to speak of. Maybe 5-0-1-7.

[Walddk]

Justin would know better than I what the vast majority would do with this hand but I am surprised all or almost all would x. Does everyone agree?

I do. In an ideal world you have a fourth heart and a spade less. The world is not ideal, so I am happy to double with that hand.

 

Roland

[kenrexford]

I would expect that 1♠-X-P-3♥ shows more than simply 9-11.  If the double is OK with three hearts, then perhaps 3♥ suggests a five-card suit. 

 

A reasonable hand he visualizes is something like xx-AKxxx-Kxx-xxx, perhaps.

Do you expect 5♥ to make across that? I'd call it considerably less than 50%. This is MPs, to boot- if it's less than 50%, you don't want to be there.

 

In contrast, you look pretty good for three red tricks and a club. Sure 300 vs. a very unsure 450...no thanks.

 

This all seems to rely on diamonds coming in with a finesse.  Maybe Opener holds something like AKQxx-x-Kx-KQJxx (from North's perspective)?

 

You would bid 5♣ with this?! Yeesh. Why wouldn't you just bid 4♣?

 

Opener should be, at a minimum, 5-2-0-6, with no defense to speak of. Maybe 5-0-1-7.

I'm not sayiong it was a good bid. Just not insane.

 

For that matter, the worse the defense for the 5♣ bid, the better the chances of a concentration of values necessary for 5♥ to make.

 

It might even be the case that, if 5♥ fails, 5♣ makes. I mean, if 5♣ was bid on 6-5 pattern, there might be 11 tricks (11 for the 6-5, minus one for the club Ace, plus one for the heart Ace).

[mikeh]

I am with the majority here: I think North was out of his mind for 5♥.. one of the worst calls I have seen posted on this forum.

 

Having made a borderline but reasonable double, N should not have even thought about bidding (actually, the bid is SO bad that I suspect that he didn't think anyway). Had he thought, he might have said to himself: what kind of hand did I show with my double? Do I have extra playability in ♥s beyond what I have promised?

 

Even if the answer to the last question was 'yes', he'd still want to measure risk before bidding, but, given that the answer is a resounding 'no', he doesn't even have to do that. He passes, and allows his partner to make the last decision.

 

I don't like the 3♥ call by South, but that 'error' would not cause the disaster if North understood anything about the game, so I'd give S no more than 5% of the blame.