Lebensohl or not over artif 2cl

[tkass]

One of us say : Playing lebensohl over 2cl Capeletti is the way to go

 

the other say: we are better if we use dbl as Stayman and play our system integrally ignoring the opps intervention

 

what are your tought on that subject

 

thx to sll

 

tkass

[Fluffy]

play leb, it will most likelly be a invitational hand all the time, but any other treatment doesn't look good to me

[mcphee]

My preference is to use dble as Stayman and play methods on over 2C when Capp. is used.There are many hands where responder may like to compete with 5-4 majors or even 4-4 majors. I fail to see why when holding 5-4 majors especially, we should be unable to get the best shot to advise partner we have both majors. I for one hate playing on a 5-2 major fit when I have a 4-4 major fit. On many hands where capp has been used the 5-2 major fit will often find the opps to have 4-2 trumps. Often the case when the capp bidder holds a 6 card suit.

 

Dble as stayman is just more flexible IMHO.

[SoTired]

There are problems using leb over a capp 2C.

• Opps suit is unknown, so show/deny stopper does not work
  
• leb 2N then 3C and then how to ask stayman? You can't q-bid clubs
  

So over a Capp 2C, I play X=stayman and everything on. Over a natural 2C, I play leb on and 1N-(2C)-2N-3C-3D = stayman

 

One solution other than X=stayman and everything on is to pass first, wait for the opps suit to be clarified, then use leb. You can combine that with initial bids like X=clubs and 2x=natural, NF.

[kenrexford]

When I read the post, I was expecting a different question. That was more fun for me, so I'll answer that question. :( :) :)

 

Lebensohl after a 2♣ opening makes sense, modified, if 2♣ shows limited values. Maybe some 4441, maybe Precision, maybe two-suited, but average opening strength.

 

The modification would be that 2♦ is the substitute for 2NT, otherwise Lebensohl-ish.

 

Lebensohl is akin to using a Herbert Negative but making the negative always 2NT. Or, Herbert Negatives are akin to Lebensohl, with 2♦ being used instead of 2NT.

 

AFter 1NT-2♣, I prefer systems on, X for Stayman. Easy to remember.

[jdonn]

One solution other than X=stayman and everything on is to pass first, wait for the opps suit to be clarified, then use leb. You can combine that with initial bids like X=clubs and 2x=natural, NF.

I have heard of this thing of passing first then using Leb the next round after you know their suit, but I always thought it was a bad idea. For one thing, their suit may be on the 3 level if it is clubs. For another responder may be weak with clubs and pass the 2♣ bid, not giving you another chance. For another it is easy (if you are willing to take the chance of 2♣ being passed) to show/deny a stopper by passing then either bidding 3NT or cuebidding after you find out the suit, no need for any convention. For another you lose the chance for passing then bidding 2NT to show minors if they have a major (which I am completely sure it should be). For another you give responder a chance to find out the suit also, like say you are invitational with hearts and pass first, it could go 1NT 2♣ P 2♦ p 2♠ 2NT 3♠, instead of 1NT 2♣ 2♦ P 2♥ 2♠ 2NT 3♠ where partner now knows your hand. I know some other reasons too but that should do.

[whereagles]

Ron Klinger recommends the

 

dbl = "I was going to bid 2♣"

else = system on

 

scheme in his keri book, regardless of what 2♣ is. No reasons given, so I assume it's for the simplicity.

[mycroft]

I play over the 2C not showing a suit, X=Stayman and Systems on for the reasons described above. I asked, however, and the experts I play with would consider 1NT-2C!-p-2D!; p-(p/2M)-2NT to be natural with stopper in their suit, not Lebenohl now that we know the suit. I still am not sure of the usefulness of this, as I am not sure of the usefulness of 2NT invitations in general.

 

I play over 2C showing clubs Lebensohl, with 2NT-3C;3D as the "stayman with a stopper" call. I'd rather lose the invitational diamond hand than the Stayman with a stopper. It seems odd, but it works. I don't think you lose much playing "Systems on over 2C, whatever it is", but given the kind of garbage I overcall, I like having the axe visible, and to hand. Keeps 'em honest.

 

Michael.

 

Michale.