3S/3NT not allowed (brown)

[kgr]

We wanted to play system below, but 3S and 3NT are not allowed (brown):

2C: weak 6 card C

      or weak 5 card C and 4 card M

2D: weak M

      or strong NT (22+)

      or GF minor

2H/2S: muiderberg (weak 5H/S and 4 card m)

2NT: 20-21

3C: weak D

      or GF H

      or GF 5cH/5cS

      or GF 5cD/5cC

3D: weak H

      or GF S

      or GF 5cH/5c minor

3H: weak S

      or GF 5cS/5c minor

3S: same as gambling 3NT

3NT: preempt C or D

4C/4D: namyats

4NT: 6/5 minors

------------------------------

We are not allowed to play 3S and 3NT as described above because these are brown conventions (weak opening and no suit is known).

What is the best way to change this system?

I was thinking:

3S: Namyats (8 tricks H or S and 12+HCP) => What are best continuations here?

3NT: gambling

4C/4D: preempt C/D

 

Thanks,

Koen

[hrothgar]

By definition a 3NT opening can't be a BSC. If you check the definition of a BSC at

http://www.worldbridge.org/departments/systems/policy.asp you'll see that the classification doesn't apply to openings of 3NT or higher.

 

If it were me, I'd make a very simple argument: The BSC classification only applies to weak openings.

 

A hand like the following

 

♠ x

♥ xx

♦ AKQTxxx

♣ xxx

 

Isn't weak...

[MickyB]

We wanted to play system below, but 3S and 3NT are not allowed (brown):

2C: weak 6 card C

      or weak 5 card C and 4 card M

I don't like this definition. Precision uses an intermediate 2♣ opening with the same distributional constraints to fill a hole in the system, not because it performs well when opened. Better to have 2♣ either deny or promise a 4 card major (so 6♣/5♣4♦; or 5♣4M. Your choice)

 

Given the rest of your openings, the only alternative that I can think of for your 3♠ opening is to differentiate between a good and a bad 3♠ opening.

Edited February 23, 2007 by MickyB

[Free]

That 2♣ opening is more and more popular in Belgium, and I also don't see the reason why, especially since most people use 2♦ to fit in their really strong hands... Looks better to use a similar 2♦ opening, but I don't like it.

 

About the 3♠ and 3NT: 3NT is NOT brown, never! It's the 3♠ opening which is brown, but I don't understand the logic. In Belgium we have the rule of 18, which describes any hand which fulfills the rule of 18 (2 longest suits + HCP >= 18) can be considered an opening. So with a solid 7 card suit you ALWAYS have an opener, in other words, it can't be weak... Anyway, it's still considered BSC because it's described as an example for BSC's! :P

 

Continuations over a 3♠ namyats: I suggest something similar to what I play over 3NT namyats (got it from the forum somewhere):

3NT = ask to bid the Major (use 4m for extra's, 4M minimum)

4♣ = asks to transfer the Major

4♦ = asks for other Major shortness or A/K

4♥ = asks for ♣ shortness

4♠ = asks for ♦ shortness

4NT = asks for ♣ A/K

5♣ = asks for ♦ A/K

 

After 3♠-4♦:

- ♥, no ♠ shortness or A/K

- ♠, no ♥ shortness or A/K

- ♥, ♠ shortness

- ♠, ♥ shortness

- ♥, ♠A or ♠K

- ♠, ♥A or ♥K

 

After other bids:

- ♥, not what you've asked for

- ♠, not what you've asked for

- ♥, I have what you've asked for

- ♠, I have what you've asked for

[Gerben42]

The 3♠ opening bid is allowed in Germany because a gambling NT hand always satisfies the rule-of-18. In the Netherlands all hands that do not have a common suit must have 13+HCP so there it is not allowed. Also internationally it is a BSC.

 

3NT is allowed because BSC are only openings between 2♣ and 3♠.

[kgr]

The 3♠ opening bid is allowed in Germany because a gambling NT hand always satisfies the rule-of-18. In the Netherlands all hands that do not have a common suit must have 13+HCP so there it is not allowed. Also internationally it is a BSC.

 

3NT is allowed because BSC are only openings between 2♣ and 3♠.

Yes, seems coorect:

- 3NT not BSC

- 3S gambling is specifivally mentioned as example for BSC in Belgium (..at least in Flanders).

[hrothgar]

The 3♠ opening bid is allowed in Germany because a gambling NT hand always satisfies the rule-of-18. In the Netherlands all hands that do not have a common suit must have 13+HCP so there it is not allowed. Also internationally it is a BSC.

Silly question:

 

Where is the "international" regulation that classifies this as a BSC? I don't think that a hand that classifies as a gambling 3NT can be called "weak".

 

The WBF explictly defines weak as "High card strength below that of an average hand". Admitedly, this hand could be defined as "weak" using old fashioned point count structures. However, I'd expect that anyone with half a bran would rather hold

 

A + K + Q (A 9 count using the Work scale)

 

rather than

 

[J x 4] + [Q x 3] (A 10 count using the Work scale)

[Gerben42]

Okay, FYI it is here, the WBF System policy

 

4 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments

 

The following conventions or treatments are categorised as 'Brown Sticker':

 

a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that:

 

  i) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values below average strength) AND

  ii) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit.

    EXCEPTION: The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit if it is weak. If the bid does not show a known four card suit it must show a hand a king or more over average strength.

 

and an "average hand" is... Hand a hand containing 10 high card points (Milton Work) with no distributional values.

 

So I'm afraid the gambling 3♠ is a BSC.

[Apollo81]

We wanted to play system below, but 3S and 3NT are not allowed (brown):

2C: weak 6 card C

      or weak 5 card C and 4 card M

2D: weak M

      or strong NT (22+)

      or GF minor

2H/2S: muiderberg (weak 5H/S and 4 card m)

2NT: 20-21

3C: weak D

      or GF H

      or GF 5cH/5cS

      or GF 5cD/5cC

3D: weak H

      or GF S

      or GF 5cH/5c minor

3H: weak S

      or GF 5cS/5c minor

3S: same as gambling 3NT

3NT: preempt C or D

4C/4D: namyats

4NT: 6/5 minors

------------------------------

We are not allowed to play 3S and 3NT as described above because these are brown conventions (weak opening and no suit is known).

What is the best way to change this system?

I was thinking:

3S: Namyats (8 tricks H or S and 12+HCP) => What are best continuations here?

3NT: gambling

4C/4D: preempt C/D

 

Thanks,

Koen

when i asked the USBF whether this 3s opening was brown sticker their official response was "no. this is considered an above average hand"