How you share the blame?

[twcho]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxhakxxxdaqxxxcxx&s=sjxxxxhqjdkjxxxcq]133|200|Scoring: IMP

We No Ea So

-- -- -- Pa

1C 1H Pa 1S

2C 2D Pa 3C

X Pa Pa 3D

All pass[/hv]

[inquiry]

What was north thinking?

 

Partner's 3♣ showed a ♦ fit and values. Partner will have less than three hearts, and fair diamonds. His 1♠ bid already showed some values. North simply can not pass 3♦.

 

I seldom place the blame soley on one person, but here, I place it almost entirely on NORTH. The only reason he doesn't get 100% is that south could have bid 4♣ over 2♦. His hand is golden in support of ♦'s with the fitting heart values. After the "strong" 3♣ bid, I think 3♦ is enough, just in case.

 

Fault, 95% north, 5% south.

[Hanoi5]

3♣ is really weird, but then 3♦ after being doubled? I don't think so.

[jdonn]

1♥ 1♠ and 2♦ are all impeccable. I think what really happened after that is north thought that 3♣ then the later 3♦ was just an unsuccessful probe for 3NT and then a landing spot, rather than a very strong attempt to raise. But south intended the sequence as a strong raise all along. I tend to agree with north here, so I would blame south 100%. He came up with a sequence that meant what he wanted it to mean, instead of considering how it would look from the other side of the table.

 

Particularly as a passed hand, and with the 5th diamond and heart honors, I believe south should simplify the auction by bidding 4♣ over 2♦. Even though it may be possible 3NT is the best contract, at least north would know exactly what partner has and be able to make a very intelligent decision (in this case bidding blackwood and ending in 5♦).

[cherdano]

Particularly as a passed hand, and with the 5th diamond and heart honors, I believe south should simplify the auction by bidding 4♣ over 2♦. Even though it may be possible 3NT is the best contract, at least north would know exactly what partner has and be able to make a very intelligent decision (in this case bidding blackwood and ending in 5♦).

I am more worried about missing 4♥ as the best spot opposite pretty much any hand with 3 quick losers and a 5-4 with good hearts or a 6-4. If you bid 3♣, you can raise any red suit rebid.

However, after 3♣ and the double, South clarify his hand by jumping to 4♦. I don't think 3♣ is clearly a diamond raise. Couldn't South have a maximum pass with 5233 trying to find the best strain?

 

Arend

[jdonn]

Particularly as a passed hand, and with the 5th diamond and heart honors, I believe south should simplify the auction by bidding 4♣ over 2♦. Even though it may be possible 3NT is the best contract, at least north would know exactly what partner has and be able to make a very intelligent decision (in this case bidding blackwood and ending in 5♦).

I am more worried about missing 4♥ as the best spot opposite pretty much any hand with 3 quick losers and a 5-4 with good hearts or a 6-4. If you bid 3♣, you can raise any red suit rebid.

However, after 3♣ and the double, South clarify his hand by jumping to 4♦. I don't think 3♣ is clearly a diamond raise. Couldn't South have a maximum pass with 5233 trying to find the best strain?

 

Arend

North can bid 4♥ over a splinter which south is free to pass (note I didn't have north bid 4♥ on the actual hand as it is an offer to play, not a cuebid). Anyway I agree with you that after having chosen 3♣ south should bid 4♦ next. But now north is guessing about having 3 losers also like if south has KQxxx x KJxxx xx and was hoping north had the stiff club. And if north bids 4H how does south know not to pass on the actual hand without the heart jack? So much easier to just describe your hand accurately the first time around with 4♣.

[Guest Jlall]

I think 3C is definitely a good diamond raise. If south is 5233 and a passed hand he can't have enough to venture past the 2 level. North has enough to go to the 4 level. 4C by south over 2D would be hanging partner completely for bidding.

[Hanoi5]

What if South has:

 

[hv=s=skjt76hq4dkj3cjt6]133|100|[/hv]

[Guest Jlall]

What if South has:

 

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ KJT76 ♥ Q4 ♦ KJ3 ♣ JT6

Then he has an easy 2H bid? There is no safety beyond 2H with this hand.

[mike777]

North 60%

South 40%

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont like 3C.

It maybe a diamond raise, it may not.

But South can easily show a inv. raise with

diamonds, ... he can simply raise.

 

South choose 3C, ... what did he want to

acomblish? He made a bid open for interpretation,

his partner got it wrong, but the guy who started it

was South.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: As a passed hand, South cant ever create

a forcing auction.

[jdonn]

I think 3C is definitely a good diamond raise. If south is 5233 and a passed hand he can't have enough to venture past the 2 level. North has enough to go to the 4 level. 4C by south over 2D would be hanging partner completely for bidding.

If partner has a good hand we aren't too high. If partner has a bad hand with 5 diamonds we aren't too high, or the opponents make a lot, or both. If partner has a bad hand with 4 diamonds, good riddance he asked to be hanged with the second bid.

 

Anyway what do you want north to bid, 4D? And now how does south have a clue what to do? I am still completely sure south should bid descriptive 4♣ instead of 3♣, but I admit I was too harsh giving north 100% since he very well could have bid again.

[HeartA]

It is really hard to blame one person. South's 3C is a little unclear and 3D after dbl is a little too weak. North's passes over 3CX and South's 3C were too chicken. I assign North and South half and half.

[helene_t]

Agree with Ben.

[Fluffy]

Even without support doubles, the initial pass should rule out playing in spades since no weak 2 nor ♠ rebid is made, then 3 clubs must be a raise in diamonds. The 3♣ bid is crystal clear to me.

 

Pass of double should be encouraging enough for south to bid 3 hearts instead of 3 diamonds. That is the only mistake I see on the bidding.

 

Can't blame north pass of 3 clubs since pass is encouraging, 13 HCP is not enough to force a game with fit in a minor and no stopper when partner is passed hand

[hotShot]

Without knowing more about the partnership I will be very careful assigning blame.

 

Among most of the players I know, 3♣ is asking for a stopper/half stopper in ♣ trying to reach 3NT. It does not promise ♦ fit. Additionally north 2♦ bid could show 4+ cards and a minimum hand, so that south not having opening strength cannot have a GF.

 

Having said that, I think that both player misdescribed their hands.

South 3♣ seems like a desperate try to get somewhere. Maybe he has support for one of north suits, maybe his ♠ are long enough to play them without support or to use them as source of tricks in 3NT, if partner can stop ♣. All this creates the impression that the ♠ suit is strong.

North has only 5 looser, his hand is much stronger than he showed with his bidding.

He never told his partner that his ♦ are a 5 card suit. Maybe 3♦ instead of 2♦ would have cleared the case. Passing 3♣X should show a hand pattern like 3541 or 2542, at least he should bid 3♦ to show 1552 or 2551 distribution.

 

I think the worst bid is 3♣, followed closely by: pass over 3♣X, 3♦ and 2♦.

But most of the blame goes to north, although 3♣ is the worst bid, it is a desperate cry for help, promising some useful hand. North's pass over 3♣X is misdescribing his hand both in strength and shape.

 

So I blame 80% north, 20% south.

[temp3600]

Most to South.

South's 3♣ followed by 3♦ sounds like someone who's disappointed partner doesn't have a club stopper. After hearing North bid both red suits, South knows the 4 level is safe and should jump at some point to indicate his great distribution.

[SoTired]

After reading another thread, I am more wary of misinterpreted bids.

 

3C is clearly a strength bid and game try, but 3C followed by 3D may be ambiguous.

 

I think South should bid 4D instead of 3D. That is unambiguous. 4C is cute, but South has no intention of playing a 5-2 heart fit, so who cares which red suit is singleton and which is doubleton.

 

Or just bid 4D over 2D. Why fool around?

[mikeh]

Both players made errors in judgement, and both were significant. In terms of impact on the eventual outcome, it seems to me that S's bidding was more responsible than was N's.

 

I agree with those who suggest a 4♣ splinter over 2♦. The nice thing about the splinter is that it is so descriptive.... and that ♥ holding has to be gold, especially since a missing ♥K, if there were one, is almost certainly onside.

 

4♣ gets the mesage across and North will be delighted.

 

OTOH, I cannot imagine passing 3♣x'd as north: why not confirm the presence of a 5 card ♦ suit? Surely that would at least afford S an opportunity to come back to life?

 

However, the damage was probably done by then. It is far from clear how S would have bid had N bid 3♦. After all, he chose a very conservative 3♦ call (why not redouble, or 4♦?).

 

Finally, S's 3♦ call was still conservative: no doubt he had talked himself into the idea that he had shown his hand, but I don't think he really had. His sequence (especially the 1♠ bid) suggested a near-opener with chunky ♠s and a moderate ♦ fit. Now, it is still possible for North to move over that, but he has handling charges in a high-level ♦ contract, especially if S has 5=1=4=3 or 5=2=3=3 shape: 3 rounds of ♣s will be dangerous on the auction.

 

So I think that S's errors were more, and more important, than Norths, but (as is often the case) both partners were imperfect.

[Fluffy]

OTOH, I cannot imagine passing 3♣x'd as north: why not confirm the presence of a 5 card ♦ suit? Surely that would at least afford S an opportunity to come back to life?

I would take 3♦ as sing off,though this was standard, what do others play?