Partner signed off

[Finch]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sakxhkxdakxxcaqxx]133|100|Scoring: IMPs[/hv]

 

The auction was different at the two tables (one of them started with a strong 1D opener) but the fundamental question is the same. You bid uncontested:

 

2C  2D

2NT  3C

3D  3H

3NT  5C

?

 

2C = strong

2D = negative or waiting (you don't play any form of double negative)

2NT = 23-24

3C = 5-card stayman

3D = no 5-card major

3H = natural, 4 cards

3NT = no 4-card major, but exactly 3 spades

5C = to play

 

Partner could have passed 2NT, but instead has shown 4 hearts, 6 or 7 clubs and has promised no more than a 0-count. Partner could have bid 4C natural slam try over 3NT (or with a better hand transferred to clubs and bid hearts).

 

So, you aren't invited to bid on.

Do you bid on anyway?

 

[Edit: Hand amended to be consistent with the auction]

[kenrexford]

Does 2♦ deny a king? If so, 6♣ is worse than 50%.

[Walddk]

3NT = no 4-card major, but exactly 3 spades

I must have miscounted my spades; I see four of them. Anyway, yes I respect my partner's decision. If you haven't been invited to the party, you are not supposed to go.

 

Roland

[paulg]

It seems likely that the slam is only better than 50% when partner has the ♥A. All other hands, including the one with the ♥Q and ♣K, may have bid gone through 4♣ with 4-6+ distribution.

 

So I pass.

 

Paul

 

PS I assume that we've transformed a random card into a spade given the explanations (or did we bid 3♠). If I really have three hearts then even more reason to pass.

[hrothgar]

Pity this is IMPS. 6♣ would be an easy bid at MP. Now I need to think.

 

Lets look at this from partner's perspective:

 

We know that partner has 4 Hearts. Furthermore, partner placed the contract in 5♣ opposite what could be a doubleton Club (I would bid the same way holding a 3=3=5=2 hand). At a bare minimum, partner should be sitting on a 6-4. He might have a 7-4 or some such. If I had to guess, I'd place him with a 1=4=2=6 hand)

 

Now lets look at my hand. I have a ridiculously control rich 23 count. (Quite honestly, this looks much more like a 25 count than a 23 count).

 

I ran a very quick sim... If my assumption about the 6-4 holds true, slam is an overwhelming favorite. Even if responder is completely bust, there are still a bunch of possibilities for cross ruffs and dummy reversals. Plus, most of the time responder has some useful stuff (the JT of clubs, the Queen of Hearts, what have you)

 

I'm bidding 6 and will apologize profusely if I am wrong.

[Finch]

Does 2♦ deny a king? If so, 6♣ is worse than 50%.

2D is any hand not worth a positive. It doesn't deny an ace.

(You might argue whether partner's subsequent bidding denies an ace or not; that's part of the point of this question)

[kenrexford]

OK, if partner could have the club King, then I bid 6♣.

 

If partner has something like x-xxxx-xx-Kxxxxx, we take six clubs, four top pointed cards, for ten tricks, and at least one heart ruff, for 11 tricks. If partner also sneaks in the heart Queen, slam is nearly 100% (fails if hearts are 6-1?). Worst case, this may be on a 50-50 heart position. There just seem to be too many good positions.

[Double !]

Is it 100% that the 5C bid shows clubs? Not in one partnership that I had a number of years ago (not that long ago-15 years maybe). It had a conventional meaning, but I can't say the name of the convention because Roland might read this. I know that the initial posting stipulated that 5C showed clubs, but I wonder about whether or not there is a better way. But, if partner did not ask my opinion but instead placed the contract, then partner knows more about my hand than I know about partner's. PASS

 

I experience a lot of disagreement regarding what various rebids above 3NT mean on similar sequences that essentially begin with 2NT-3C. Perhaps there have been many innovations since the time I essentially stopped playing live bridge: if so, I would appreciate knowing what some of these are (not necessarily saying that I'll agree with them).

 

DHL

[temp3600]

I pass, because partner could've bid 4♣ and jumped to 5.

[pclayton]

I love this hand, but if you really respect pard's judgement, you have to pass. As others have said ♥Q/♣K and a 6-4 is a move toward slam via 4♣.

 

I would expect pard would have one of these cards but not both, but its possible he has neither, and 5♣ could require a little luck.

 

Give me ♠Axx, ♥Kx, ♦AKxx, ♣AKxx; and I will bid 6. Even opposite a yarb, we are on a hook at worst.

[Guest Jlall]

I would pass. A 7-4 0 count seems possible.

[Walddk]

The thing is that if you bid 6♣ with this hand you tell your partner that s/he can't judge what the right contract is. Your hand isn't that good actually. You have one king too many in diamonds/spades. A + AK and you cover partner's minor suit losers; the other king isn't working.

 

Give me

 

AKx

KQ

Axxx

AKxx

 

and I know that 6♣ makes with trumps 2-1 opposite only six clubs. On this auction partner is often 4-7 in hearts and clubs, possibly 4-6. 5♣ shows a bust; if s/he was just a tiny bit interested in slam, s/he should have bid 4♣ followed by 5♣.

 

Partner does not have an ace and s/he does not have six clubs to the king. And if s/he has ♥Q and ♣K s/he should have (excuse me) her/his head examined.

 

I would be very annoyed if my partner raised to 6♣ with the hand Frances shows us. Frankly speaking, I don't care if it makes or not. What I do care about, however, is that my partner doesn't trust my judgement.

 

Roland

[Fluffy]

You have a ton of top tricks opposite an unalancedhand, and that is pretty different from having a bunch of Qs and Js.

 

Still I think we miss some extra strenght to bid 6. Yarborough 3415 would bid the same probably.

[P_Marlowe]

You have a ton of top tricks opposite an unalancedhand, and that is pretty different from having a bunch of Qs and Js.

 

Still I think we miss some extra strenght to bid 6. Yarborough 3415 would bid the same probably.

He could have passed 3NT, holding

just 5 clubs, does not gurantee a club

fit, opener could be 3-3-5-2.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I always respect partners decision.

[hrothgar]

I would be very annoyed if my partner raised to 6♣ with the hand Frances shows us. Frankly speaking, I don't care if it makes or not. What I do care about, however, is that my partner doesn't trust my judgement.

Here's the thing:

 

You already misrepresented your hand to partner when you chose to describe this rock-crusher as a 23-24 count. You have a complete monster with three first round controls, three second round controls, and two third round controls. Opposite the expected 6-4 you have an incredible hand. Partner may have great judgement, but he's working with faulty information. I have not reason to beleive that he's going to be able to gmake the right decision.

 

I really recommend running a quick sim and see just how many hands are capable of making 6♣ opposite this opener.

Its too frequent for me to want to pass.

[Walddk]

You already misrepresented your hand to partner when you chose to describe this rock-crusher as a 23-24 count.

I disagree. Which 23 count would you rather have on this auction

 

AKx

Kx

AKxx

AQxx

 

= the actual hand, or ...

 

AKx

KQ

Axxx

AKxx

 

= the hand I posted on page 1. If you can't tell the difference, I think your judgement is poor.

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

For a simulation you would have to set the parameters and I don't really know how to do that. Essentially that is the whole point of the problem, figuring out likely hands for the 5C bid.

[hrothgar]

You already misrepresented your hand to partner when you chose to describe this rock-crusher as a 23-24 count.

I disagree. Which 23 count would you rather have on this auction

 

AKx

Kx

AKxx

AQxx

 

= the actual hand, or ...

 

AKx

KQ

Axxx

AKxx

 

= the hand I posted on page 1. If you can't tell the difference, I think your judgement is poor.

 

Roland

I readily admit that the hand that you posted is better for slam opposite a 1=4=2=6 pattern. Furthermore, its better for slam despite the fact that its significantly weaker. I would have now qualms describing your example hand as a 23-24 HCP 1NT oriented hand. I believe that the original hand is too strong.

 

However, the issue is not whether or not I have a "perfect" hand to bid 6♣. Rather, we need to ask whether this hand will produce 12 tricks in a club contract often enough to justify advancing to slam.

 

Me, I rather have a partner who worries more about making the right bid and less about nursing my fragile little ego. Apparantly you feel differently.

[gwnn]

One should be nicer to one's own pd more than to one's hand. Pass.

[Fluffy]

holding just 5 clubs, does not gurantee a club

fit, opener could be 3-3-5-2.

Holding 5 clubs with a yarborough just guarantees you make more tricks in clubs than in NT :rolleyes:, probably with only 4 as well.

[mycroft]

I feel for Richard's ideas, really I do, but I pass. If 6C makes, I apologize, but not for passing 5C - for bidding 2NT.

 

Once I make a judgement on a hand, I stick with it. Other information will tell me it's a "good X" or a "bad X" or a "really incredible X", but it's still relative to describing it as X.

 

"I bid it as 22-23, but it's really a 25-count." Oops. "I bid it as 22-23, but given partner's hand, it's massive" - okay, that's a change. I don't think my hand has improved enough by partner's shape. Maybe it has, I'm not an expert slam judger. But if what's convincing me that I should bid slam is that I underbid my hand two rounds ago, then I have to back my judgement and hope conservatism is right today.

 

I still remember an auction that the pair asked me about afterwards: P-1D-(1H); 1NT-2D; 3NT-P. I said that they really didn't want my opinion (I was an opponent, but they know I'm fair, even in these auctions. But they really didn't want my opinion). They insisted, and I said that the only bid I agreed with in the entire auction was my partner's overcall. Opener had made a seriously substandard opening because it would play well (that judgement I didn't agree with); after the overcall, passed-hand responder bid 1NT with an 11-count; opener ran from 1NT to his ratty 5-card minor because he was embarrassed by his opening; and responder bid 3NT because she had three-card support and all this unbid strength.

 

If either of them had just backed their (bad) judgement, they would have rescued a few matchpoints on the board. In fact, if opener had backed his judgement and "passed anything partner bid", they would have had an almost top with 1NT=, as most were getting too high. But I see this all the time - people trying to recover from bids they later regret, and going from a negative position to a massive negative position instead.

 

Michael.

[Finch]

For a simulation you would have to set the parameters and I don't really know how to do that. Essentially that is the whole point of the problem, figuring out likely hands for the 5C bid.

Indeed.

 

Anyway, I thought this an interesting hand because I'm normally strongly in the camp of "if partner signs off you should always respect that", but here it's possible to construct hands where you are 23-24 balanced and you don't. Roland gave a hand he would raise to 6 on; but how about this hand:

 

AKx

AK

Ax

AJ9xxx

 

on which you can underwrite 7C?

(maybe you wouldn't call is 23-24 but you take my point)

There are certainly plenty of hands where you know 6C is good or cold opposite a 64 0-count so this isn't an auction where you are absolutely obliged to respect partner's opinion; partner has not only given you an opinion but also described their hand in detail.

 

Anyway, if we trust partner then she ('twas I) won't have an ace, and won't have the CK and the HQ as either of those hands would be a 4C-then-5C bid. My partner, who held the strong hand, thought for a while and eventually decided that while it might be on a finesse (HQ OR CK opposite) it was impossible for it to be cold, and it might be much worse than a finesse. His counterpart at the other table raised to 6.

 

The passers win this time. Partner has

x

10xxx

x

109xxxxx

 

Slam is poor, and goes off (clubs are 1-1 but the HA is off-side).

 

FWIW, I'm a bit surprised at the comments that this hand is "too strong" for a 23-24 rebid. It's a pretty 23-count with lots of controls, but has no 5-card suit, no pips... if partner passes 2NT we won't have missed game.

[skjaeran]

It's very close between pass and 6♣. You can easily give partner a hand for this auction where slam is odds on. With the actual hand slam was odds off and would go down.

 

The decision would normally depend on your personal view of life (optimist/pessimist) or the state of the match (need a swing?).

 

I totally disagree with posters saying the hand is too strong to bid as 23-24 balanced. 2NT is where you belong if parner elects to pass (you might in fact prefer to play 1NT :P ). And it's easy to upgrade the hand if partner makes a move.

[HeartA]

With all my honors being primary cards, I am going to bid 6C.

[Guest Jlall]

I would pass. A 7-4 0 count seems possible.

The passers win this time. Partner has

x

10xxx

x

109xxxxx

 

BRAG.