competitive auction

[jillybean]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sq7ht973djckqt843&s=s985hkq85dat2ca75]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     1♦    Dbl

 1♠    Dbl   2♠    Pass

 Pass  3♣    Pass  Pass

 3♠    Pass  Pass  Pass

 

 

What do you think of Norths double?

Should someone have bid again after 3♠?

 

tyia

jb

[sceptic]

better than souths :)

[firmit]

What do you think of Norths double?

Should someone have bid again after 3♠?

Norths dbl is responsive ( edit: or is it negative..:) ), and shows fit for unbid suit; hearts and clubs. Perfect bid. 3♣ is obviosly competitive - but some play it as forcing. Anyway, partner should wake up and re-evaluate his hand. He suddenly got a two way fit himself! Bidding 4♣ is also valid. 4♣-2 or 4♣-1, still beats 3♠ making.

 

North should count the opps cards: Partner got 3 spades probably, and 3+ hearts. He did not feel like bidding 3♥, so 3+ unbid suit is all we got. With single diamond, and partner probably holding 2-3 in the suit, opps got a two-way-fit - which give them the odds of 3♠ making. Hence - 4♣ should be bid.

 

It is easy to say with the entire layout - but 4♣ should be bid if you expect 3♠ to make. Some may argue the rule of 17 trump - if we got 9 trump, they got 8 - thus 3♠ is to high. But that need modifications when a two suit-fit is present.

[Guest Jlall]

Norths dbl is responsive ( edit: or is it negative..:) ), and shows fit for unbid suit; hearts and clubs. Perfect bid.

No, no, no. No.

 

Norths X is penalty. Sure you might say this is a matter of agreement, but I would be shocked if many if any top level players play this as anything other than penalty. Penalty is standard here. Your partner has shown length in spades, and the opponents have bid spades. You can certainly X to say that you also have length in spades.

 

This protects against a psyche and enables you to compete in a 4-4 fit even when the opps have bid the suit (we've all played with 4-1 splits before). If you have the other 2 suits just bid them, partner has them too. You don't want to be forced to bid 2S with 9 points and 4 spades on this auction, but you don't just want to roll over and die either.

 

With the north hand I would have bid 2H, hoping to be able to bid clubs later. 2C would be an OK bid but it risks losing hearts which is an unacceptable risk to me since if you have a game that is where it probably rates to be. If I lose a suit I would rather that it's clubs.

 

On your actual auction passing out 3S was fine. 4C is no cinch and you will often beat 3S.

[firmit]

Jlall

You destroyed my answer! GOOD!! It was horrible!

 

I rest my case.

[Double !]

one more vote for the double of 1S showing 4+ spades and a hand worth a response. Not the other 2 suits.

DHL :)

[goobers]

I believe this is one of the examples where Modern Bridge Conventions emphatically states that the second double is not responsive :)

 

 

Yikes, I'm not doubling with south's hand.

[firmit]

I am not defending myself - my previous response was wrong. I am not running away form it - it will always haunt me!

 

I've asked some other experts where I come from, and they agree with you all. I have been presented a "solution" to handle psyche-bids:

 

"If the opponents are known for their honesty, hence not bluffing, you should use X as take-out. However, the given situation 1x-X, is a known bluffing situation!

 

After 1C-X-1S!

- X = advancer shows exactly 4 spades minimum 6+ hp ->partners choice

- 2S = 5 spades 6-9hp "

 

All other bids natural I guess.

 

He continues with, "if this is suitable, is unsaid, but some of the elite players in Denmark are using it."

 

Please comment.

[han]

Even if the opponents are known for their honesty then you should still use the double to show 4 spades imo.

[firmit]

I had to find this thread again today - not to rub it into someone's face, but to get the arguments. I can see that my own perspective have changed the last year - hopefully for the better!

 

Played with an expert today - bidding went

1♦-X-1♠-X!

which I meant as penalty. He jumped to 4♥XX-2, and gave me a mouthful. Ah well, maybe he was right - maybe I was right.

 

Anyway, the backlog of threads, and the daily interest of this forum is just superb!

[Guest Jlall]

LOL, i didn't realize this was an old thread and was about to post and tell you emphatically that norths X is not responsive hahaha. Then I realized I already had B)

 

On a side note, I love souths X of 1D, well done for making it. It is the type of double I think a lot of beginner/intermediates would miss. It's important to get in on a hand like this.

[goobers]

Lol, I saw that I had posted months ago that I wouldn't double with South's hand.

 

I do now B)

 

Edit: Wow, a year ago, not months.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I would not have made the t/o double

with the South hand, but you did not ask

about this double.

 

I dont care for the double by North, I would

have shown my suit, most likely by bidding

3C.

Assuming Norths double showed 4-4 in the other

suits and some values, I play it as penalty, I would

say South should bid 3H, but it is close.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[vuroth]

I confess that south's hand is a routine pass for me, though I suspected that the experts would disagree. I take it the 4 card major and 13 points make it worth the plunge?

 

At a guess, you would pass with:

 

♠ 985

♥ KQ8

♦ AT2

♣ A752

 

or

 

♠ 985

♥ K985

♦ AT2

♣ A75

 

and you would pass 1♥ with

 

♠ 985

♥ KQ85

♦ AT2

♣ A75

 

but double 1♠?

 

Or am I splitting hairs here?

[joker_gib]

Clear t/o X in S and X in N = ♠'s

[brianshark]

South's hand is not a takeout double playing standard take-out doubles. A lot of experts are more liberal with their doubles but that's with partnership understanding of a more liberal style, not because "it's the expert thing to do".

 

North's double is not a responsive double because responsive doubles only apply when responder raises opener's suit, not when he bids a new suit. Simple as that.

[jdonn]

I confess that south's hand is a routine pass for me, though I suspected that the experts would disagree. I take it the 4 card major and 13 points make it worth the plunge?

 

At a guess, you would pass with:

 

♠ 985

♥ KQ8

♦ AT2

♣ A752

 

or

 

♠ 985

♥ K985

♦ AT2

♣ A75

 

and you would pass 1♥ with

 

♠ 985

♥ KQ85

♦ AT2

♣ A75

 

but double 1♠?

 

Or am I splitting hairs here?

This is all exactly right for me

[jdonn]

South's hand is not a takeout double playing standard take-out doubles. A lot of experts are more liberal with their doubles but that's with partnership understanding of a more liberal style, not because "it's the expert thing to do".

I think it is +EV to double with this hand regardless of any special understandings that I can double with this hand. It has support for all suits and an opening hand. If we pass we could easily get shut out of the auctionon our partscore or game, or we could face a nasty decision later about whether we want to come in when it has become much more dangerous. I don't see how we can get in trouble doubling with this hand playing "standard" takeout doubles unless partner thinks that means we are always 4-4-1-4 or something silly.