Best Approach Over Strong 2C

[kenrexford]

Here is an extremely everyday sort of hand that arose while I was kibbing

 

[hv=s=sjt962hj42djt53cq]133|100|[/hv]

 

2C Pass 2D Pass

2H Pass ?

 

OK, I agree that judgment is the name of the game. What is my judgment here? In increasing order of strength I can bid 3C (second neg) followed by 4H, I can bid 4H directly over 2H, or I can bid 3H. I could also wait with the hearts and bid my spades. I can't say I know what is best and I can't say that I see how any other method would help me much. Playing controls may help a little since 2D would show at most one control which might free me up to be a little more positive in my next response. Playing 2H as a negative I suppose it starts 2C-2H and I have to choose a call after 2C-2H-3H, is that right? Playing a Kokish relay it goes 2C-2D-2H-2S-3H? Then what? Or maybe after the Kokish relay opener will bid some side values showing hearts plus some side suit? Maybe this will help?

 

This is a simple enough hand so that decent methods should handle it. Do they?

This hand has a relatively good solution, if you add in another little tool.

 

First, an enhanced response structure. Maybe, 2♣-P-?

 

2♦ = GF, waiting

2♥ = double negative

2♠ = minor(s) (Opener can relay 2NT, whereafter bid minor or short amjor if both)

3♣ = positive with hearts

3♦ = positive with spades

3M = preemptive

 

Now, with one Queen, a stiff mind you, you respond 2♥. With a long minor, you would have bid 2♠. So, after 3♥ you bid 4♣, a control with heart support.

 

 

 

Kenberg. I see how showing spades might be difficult after Kokish to a degree. However, with four spades, you have no problem because partner will bid 2♥...3♠. If you use the structure above, then after 3♠ you can use flags (4M = relative weakness; 4min = matching rank major, relative strength).

 

With five spades (5-3 fit possible), you bid 3♠ after any heart-based rebid.

 

The problem seems to be a sixth spade; hence 2NT instead of 2♠ after Kokish.

[kenberg]

OK, I think I give a point here to the negative 2H response. After 2C-2H(weak)-3H, a four club bid, at least if understood as definitely shortness rather than a fragment, would be useful to opener. Weak hand, some hearts, short clubs. Not a bad description of the hand. It's an argument for having a specific understanding about follow-ups over 3H. I assume 3S over 3H would be spades, presumably w/o a heart fit.

 

I usually decline to play the negative 2H simply because I fear I will not be able to interpret what happens next. There seems to be something to this fear, but maybe it can all be laid out to avoid misunderstanding.

[fred]

Here is what I play in my regular partnerships:

 

2D=waiting (then 2H=an improved version of Kokish)

2H=negative (defined as a hand that will Pass a 2NT rebid or use a Jacoby transfer and then Pass)

2S=8-10 balanced

2NT=positive response in either major

 

The 2S bid is a relatively new innovation (at least for us) and so far it has proven itself to be useful. The idea is to use this bid to describe a hand that is strong enough to make a slam try if the 2C opener rebids any suit, but not strong enough to drive to slam. 2S allows you to get your values off your chest and this takes a lot of pressure off the remainder of the auction.

 

The other day I was playing on BBO with a non-regular partner and I held:

 

AQxx

J10x

Q10xx

xx

 

My partner opened 2C. We were not playing the 2S convention so I bid 2D (waiting). Now he bid 3C, endplaying me.

 

I thought my hand was too good for 3NT. Probably 4NT is natural here, but I did not want to make this call for several reasons. Obviously bidding a 4-card suit is not very appealling here so I decided on 4C.

 

This worked well on the actual deal (because partner had 7 solid clubs) but it is easy to see that it could have worked out poorly if he had a lesser suit or a 2-suited hand.

 

Had I been able to bid 2S the first time, I would have been happy to bid 3NT over my partner's 3C rebid and leave further exploration (if any) to him.

 

I don't like control responses at all, but many expert swear by them. I think 2H negative is excellent, but many experts think it is terrible. In America Kokish has been almost universally adopted by the expert community (for good reason in my view).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mikeh]

Fred, after the 2N either major response, do you use any gadgetry?

 

I currently play 2N either major as well, and we use 3♣ by opener as either natural or balanced: responder's first duty is to transfer into his major. This obviously seems destined to cause some problems later... when opener has ♣s and an inability to distinguish between the natural club hand and the big balanced hand. However, it does get opener on play, and facilitates major slam bidding.

 

 

As for the hand you posted, it has long been my practice to use 3♦ over opener's 3♣ as a 'noise', the purpose of which is primarily to allow opener to show a 4 card major or to bid 3N. I recognize that there will be times when one may miss a 5-3 ♦ fit.. if responder has 6+♦s and slam values, he can usually get back to ♦s over opener's rebid... so the 6-3 or 6-2 is not going to be missed very often.

[fred]

Fred, after the 2N either major response, do you use any gadgetry?

 

I currently play 2N either major as well, and we use 3♣ by opener as either natural or balanced: responder's first duty is to transfer into his major. This obviously seems destined to cause some problems later... when opener has ♣s and an inability to distinguish between the natural club hand and the big balanced hand. However, it does get opener on play, and facilitates major slam bidding.

 

 

As for the hand you posted, it has long been my practice to use 3♦ over opener's 3♣ as a 'noise', the purpose of which is primarily to allow opener to show a 4 card major or to bid 3N. I recognize that there will be times when one may miss a 5-3 ♦ fit.. if responder has 6+♦s and slam values, he can usually get back to ♦s over opener's rebid... so the 6-3 or 6-2 is not going to be missed very often.

I use the same methods that you do after 2C-2NT, Mike.

 

After 2C-2NT-3C-3x, opener completes the transfer to agree the major. 3NT says "I have a balanced hand with only 2 of your major". Any other bid says "I have clubs".

 

3NT directly over 2NT would also show clubs (and is non-forcing).

 

I agree that in theory this is less than ideal. I can't really speak for how well it works in practice since I don't recall it ever coming up. Given the awkwardness here we do not exactly go out of our way to use the 2NT response to 2C.

 

I also normally play 2C-2D-3C-3D=noise, but that doesn't work so well unless you play immediate 2H=negative because 3D is useful as a "2nd negative".

 

When the hand in question came up, 3D would have been a "2nd negative" for our partnership. I toyed with the idea of making this call and then trying to catch up later, but I did not want to open that particular can of worms.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[glen]

Fred, what is the "improved version of Kokish"?

 

Btw, 2C-2NT as postive balanced is not working well for my partnership, and my study shows that 2C-2♠ as 8+ balanced or 8-10 (even better) will work very well.

[1eyedjack]

Here is a link to the method that I quite like with a regular partner:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=17948

 

It is something of a strain on the memory, as commented in that thread, but the strain is to some extent alleviated by bolting the same structure onto the responses to a 2N opener:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=33201

 

and also by replicating the singleton structure after 2C-2D-2S+ as with 2C-2S+

[fred]

Fred, what is the "improved version of Kokish"?

 

Btw, 2C-2NT as postive balanced is not working well for my partnership, and my study shows that 2C-2♠ as 8+ balanced or 8-10 (even better) will work very well.

Here's the basic idea:

 

2C-2D

2H

 

Responder must bid 2S, then:

 

2NT=lots of points (24+ for me)

3C=hearts+diamonds

3D=1-suited hearts

3H=hearts+4 spades

3S=hearts+clubs

3NT=non-forcing (typically 6 hearts 322)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

Fred, what is the "improved version of Kokish"?

 

Btw, 2C-2NT as postive balanced is not working well for my partnership, and my study shows that 2C-2♠ as 8+ balanced or 8-10 (even better) will work very well.

Here's the basic idea:

 

2C-2D

2H

 

Responder must bid 2S, then:

 

2NT=lots of points (24+ for me)

3C=hearts+diamonds

3D=1-suited hearts

3H=hearts+4 spades

3S=hearts+clubs

3NT=non-forcing (typically 6 hearts 322)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Again, why must Responder bid 2♠ with all hands? This seems like a major waste of space.

 

Submarine by Opener at least allows agreement below 3NT in the side suit a lot more often. The big problems left by always bidding 2♠ are:

 

1. long spades hands,

2. clubs but not hearts hands, and

3. difficult-to-bid after 2NT hands.

 

Can't any of these be solved through alternatives to 2♠?

 

Not picking on you, Fred. I'm just meaning to continue/return to the discussion as to alternatives to 2♠.

[pclayton]

Ive played with Winston's transfer positives, but im a little stumped on continuations. If someone can come up with a good idea Id be interested.

 

Heres what i play now and Im pretty happy with it.

 

2D is automatic.

 

2H is Kokish.

 

After 2C - 2D - 2S - 2N and 3S are transposed. This gets the NT rightsided and it saves space. I heard about this from Mike Shuster.

 

2C - 2D - 3 major shows 4 of the major and 5 plus diamonds. Since this implies a huge hand it creates a game force.

 

2C - 2D - 3C - 3D is more than noise - its stayman (or negative). Similar to 3 major it shows a very strong hand and if opener has a 4 card major it shows a GF.

[Winstonm]

Ive played with Winston's transfer positives, but im a little stumped on continuations. If someone can come up with a good idea Id be interested.

 

 

Most popular methods for positves are 1) some number of controls, i.e., an Ace and a King or 2) some quality of suit, i.e., 2 of the top 3.

 

The idea of transfer positives is to be able to ask when needed.

 

For example: 2C-2H (trx to spades)

2S = either control ask if suit quality is known or suit quality ask if

minimum controls are known.

 

 

A hand with no fit can ignore the transfer, and a NT hand can bid a minimum NT to show range and allow the weaker hand to take over.

[Guest Jlall]

After 2C - 2D - 2S - 2N and 3S are transposed. This gets the NT rightsided and it saves space. I heard about this from Mike Shuster.

I hate this. You say it saves space, but that is only true when responder has a spade fit. If responder is balanced you lose space. Personally, I'd rather have the space when I have no established fit so I have more room to investigate one than when I have an established fit. For instance even something very basic like a 4-4 heart fit may be lost the way you are playing it.

[glen]

Afte 2♣-2♦-2♠ I like:

 

2NT: 3+♠s

3♣: more waiting around

3♦: ♥s

3♥: ♣s

3♠: ♦s

 

This will come up every 1000 hands or so, so best of luck with the memory.

[mikeh]

 

After 2C - 2D - 2S - 2N and 3S are transposed. This gets the NT rightsided and it saves space. I heard about this from Mike Shuster.

 

I played this for a short time: it came up only a few times before we abandoned it. We knew it as JAWS, altho I have no idea where this name came from.

 

The problem was not when we had a fit (2N worked fine then, preserving bidding space beautifully) but when we had no immediate major suit fit. After the auction 2♣ 2♦ 2♠ ... having to bid 3♠ with all 4432 or 4441 hands with short ♠s (which is hardly uncommon) was destructive of bidding space.

 

And experience showed, very quickly, that normal bidding (2♣ 2♦ 2♠ 3♠) worked fine anyway: the gain of bidding space from the inversion was nice, and definitely an edge... but not a huge edge. On the other hand, the loss of bidding space when we had to deny a fit was huge: especially if opener had a 4 card side suit. Opener, with a big 5422 for example, would have to decide whether to end the auction with 3N or bid 4 new suit.... with no assurance that any fit existed anywhere or that partner held any particular range of strength.

 

JAWS was one of those sexy ideas that works great when the conditions are perfect (the only examples the promoters of the bid ever use) and poorly when they are not: and the downside outweighs the upside, at least in my opinion.

 

As an addendum, I just read Glen's adjunct, and that certainly appears to address some of the issues, but not all of them: does it turn the sow's ear into a silk (or at least a nylon) purse? I'd need to play his approach to find out, and I doubt that I will :)

[the hog]

Several very strong Aust. players used the following, which I really like:

 

2D = all positives

2H = very negative

2S = 5 to about 8 semi pos bal

2N = semi pos 3 suiter

3C = semi pos with D

3D = semi pos with H

3H = semi pos with S

3S = semi pos with C

3NT = semi pos 5/5+ Ms

4C = semi pos 5/5+ ms

4D = semi pos 5/5+ reds

4H = semi pos 5/5+ blacks

 

It is easy enough to devise "sexy" continuations.

[Fluffy]

I play 2♦ 0-7, rest nat, it is not really good, but it helps us to remind to open 2♣ the least we can :). Actually for us 2♣ is at least 50% of the time balanced, since we open a lot at the 1 level; and 2♣-2X-3X is a common auction for us.

[ucrman]

I like an immediate 2H second negative. I had found that the auctions following 2D improved because there was no need for a second negative by responder since I played the 2D response as a game force. I like the 2C opener to have more quick tricks than losers.

 

However, the auctions after the 2H second negative response were somewhat shaky. So, I came up with the following (opener bids 2S as a relay to 2NT with most two suiters):

 

2C - 2H

 

2S - relays to 2NT but responder can bid a 7+-card suit headed by Q

      2NT - forced relay

            3C - Nonforcing, shows 4+ Cs with a 5 card M.

                3D asks for the 5-card M.

            3D - Nonforcing, shows 4+ Ds with a 5-card M.

                 3H (4H) - Asks opener to pass with 5 Hs or else bid 3S (4S).

                3S (4S) - Asks opener to pass with 5 Ss or else further desribe the hand with 5 H's.

            3H - Nonforcing, shows Hs > or = to Ss.

                4C, 4D - Slam try, 3+ card support, singleton or void in the suit bid.

            3S - Nonforcing, shows Ss > Hs.

                4C, 4D - Slam try, 3+ card support, singleton or void in the suit bid.

            3NT - Shows a 4-4-4-1 hand, any singleton.

                4C - asks for the short suit, opener makes the next bid above the singleton.

                4D, 4H, 4S - opener corrects to next higher suit with a singleton in that suit.

                4NT - Slam try - asks opener to bid at 5-level or the 6-level in the lowest suit, searching for a fit.

            4C - forcing, shows 4+ Cs and a 5-card M.

                4D asks for the 5-card M.

            4D - forcing, shows 4+ Ds with a 5-card M.

                4H - Asks opener to pass with 5 Hs or else bid 4S.

                4S - Asks opener to pass with 5 Ss or else bid 4NT, 5C, or 5D with 5 Hs.

            4H - Nonforcing, shows Hs > or = to Ss.

            4S - Nonforcing, shows Ss > Hs.

            5C - Equal length in the minors.

            6C - Equal length in the minors.

2NT - 22-23 (24) balanced.

3C, 3D - Natural and forcing, 5+ in the suit.

3H, 3S - Natural, nonforcing, 6+ card suit.

    3S, 4C, 4D - Slam try, 4+ card support, singleton or void in the suit bid.

3NT - 24-27, balanced.

4C - Forcing, showing 6+ Cs with a 4-card M.

    4D asks for the 4-card M.

4D - Forcing, shows 6+ Ds with a 4-card M.

    4H - Asks opener to pass with 4 Hs or else bid 4S.

    4S - Asks opener to pass with 4 Ss or else bid 4NT, 5C, or 5D with 4 Hs.

4H - natural, for play.

    4S, 5C, 5D - Slam try, 3+ card support, singleton or void in the suit bid.

4S - natural, for play.

    5C, 5D, 5H - Slam try, 3+ card support, singleton or void in the suit bid.

5C, 5D - Natural for play.