Sanity check

[cinvent77]

This is probably a question which has been asked before, but I cannot find a conclusive answer. I'm learning SAYC. Consider the following situation:

 

1♣ - 1♦

1♥ - ...

 

In my opinion responder's rebids are "obviously"

 

1♠ = natural and forcing

2♠ = fourth suit GF

 

3♦ = invitational but nonforcing

 

Since I'm rather stubborn, what do you think? What is the most common agreement?

 

Vincent

[SoTired]

since sayc and bil, you don't play walsh. but you mentioned 4sf.

some exclude this auction from 4sf.

 

if you have not excluded this auction, then both 1S and 2S are both 4th suit forcing. Some players play 1S <4♠ and 2S=4♠. Without discussion, 1S is game-forcing with spade length undefined (like other 4sf). So all game-force hands start with 1S making everything else less.

 

After 1C 1D 1H:

- 1S = 4sf

- Pass, 1N, 2C, 2D = weak

- 2H = weak but constructive (8-10)

- 2N, 3C, 3D, 3H = invitational

- 3S = splinter

- 4C, 4D = forcing. Get same result with 1S first then bid the minor

- 3N, 4H = signoff

[pclayton]

This is probably a question which has been asked before, but I cannot find a conclusive answer. I'm learning SAYC. Consider the following situation:

 

1♣ - 1♦

1♥ - ...

 

In my opinion responder's rebids are "obviously"

 

1♠ = natural and forcing

2♠ = fourth suit GF

 

3♦ = invitational but nonforcing

 

Since I'm rather stubborn, what do you think? What is the most common agreement?

 

Vincent

This is how I play it.

[firmit]

At 1-level, one might use 4s as RF - not GF. This way, the correct hand gets to play in NT.

Edit: This implies that 1NT might be used as GF with spade controls, <4. Depending on agreement.

 

1C-1D-1H-?

- pass <6 hp, at least 3 hearts

- 1S RF - control asking, may be weak- "transfer" to 1NT

- - 1NT 11-15

- - 2NT 16-17

- - 3NT 18+

- 1NT GF with control in spades, serious slam interest

- or 1NT 6-9hp spade control - depending on agreement

- 2H 10-12 limit 4 hearts ( implies 4+-4 D-H, 10-12 )

- 2S GF hearts, splinter-singelton

- 2NT 10-12 spade controls

- 3H GF hearts

- 3S GF hearts splinter-void

 

I think this is easily adapted into sayc - changing only 4s meaning at 1-level to RF vs GF.

[WrecksVee]

If by SAYC you actually mean "Standard American Yellow Card" as defined by the ACBL then 1♠ is FSF and may be artificial. It is not forcing to game. A jump to 2♠ should be game forcing as it is a jump shift by Responder. Per the SAYC booklet, which is vague, this may also be artificial. For me, this should be the limit of the agreement in a casual partnership. Using SAYC with a casual partner should stick to the agreeement as laid down. It is not optimum but it saves a lot of confusion and error among casual partners.

 

If you are using SAYC as the base for a regular partnership then adding conventions and defining treatments as seems best to you is the way to go. In the DC area a well known 2/1 system is Washington Stardard. It uses 1♠ as natural or FSF to game. The jump to 2♠ is natural showing 15+ HCP with 4+♠ and 4+♦; the ♦ would be equal or longer than the ♠ since WS using up-the-line responses.

 

In my most practiced partnership we play 1♠ as natural and forcing for one round. 2♠ is FSF to game. I do not think this is best but it was agreed as a matter of partnership harmony.

 

This is an area which depends on personal agreements and tastes. I think the important thing to ask a new partner is whether they prefer FSF as forcing for one round or as forcing to game. THe latter is easier to play but will lead to some unbiddable hands. OTOH you may be too high but you should be in the right strain.

[cinvent77]

Thank you for the replies.

 

By "learning SAYC" I meant figuring out what to expect in a pickup partnership in BBO The SAYC booklet is sometimes a little vague. Here the sour grape was that I passed 3♦ while partner had 15 points... Maybe I do need to find a regular partner ;)

 

If you play Walsh then 1♠ seem to me to be natural and GF. And since responder can bid FSF followed by a minor, 4♣ and 4♦ must agree hearts, show slam interest with some clubs support/a good diamond suit, respectively.