Another BW deal

[mike777]

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=st543h8da954cajt3]133|100|Scoring: MP

(1S)=P=(1NT)=X

(2S)=?[/hv]

[inquiry]

I assume that partner's double was OBAR like takeout short in spades (even though they did not directly raise spade). I do not want to guess clubs or diamonds, so I will bid 2NT to get partner to pick a minor. NOTE, after RHO bids 2♠. 2NT can not be lebehnshol. If I had a weak hand and long clubs, I could simply pass, etc. I do not issue a responsive double since I can't stand a heart bid. I know some people who bid ♥ here when they have them so their responsive double is for the minors. If you play that way, then double is ok.

[Edmunte1]

I consider partner's double as take out for ♠. My bid is 2NT (best used as Scramble here). What should my double mean? This is a matter of discusion between partners and style, some considering it as penality, other as card showing.

[mikeh]

I consider partner's double as take out for ♠. My bid is 2NT (best used as Scramble here). What should my double mean? This is a matter of discusion between partners and style, some considering it as penality, other as card showing.

I use scramble or 'grope' only when the bidder HAS to make a bid: thus after [1♠] p [2♠] x [p] ?

 

Now we are stuck on many hands... we have to be able to scramble or grope for the best spot. This is not so in the posted auction: with no good bid, we can pass... if partner then reopens with a double, now our 2N is a scramble.

 

The rule is that we don't scramble unless we have to.

 

So for me the choices are 2N lebensohl or 2N pick a minor. I agree that the double was a takeout double of a 1♠ opening: but that covers a lot of territory.

 

Lebensohl is useful because it allows us to distinguish forward-going hands from those that are purely competitive.. and this may be essential if partner has extras or if the opps take the push to 3♠ and he is tempted to bid...he doesn't know we intend to punish 3♠.

 

However, we can use lebensohl effectively only if our double is responsive, denying ♥s... such that partner will bid a minor before showing a 5 card ♥ suit.

 

OTOH, if we use 2N as pick a minor, we have double available for its old-fashioned use: penalty.

 

So it comes down to partnership agreement. I am sure that, with a great deal more work than I am prepared to do, it would be possible to determine which approach is the most effective, based on frequency of occurence. I will allow the BW panel to enlighten me based on the cumulative experience of the panel. My suspicion is that responsive double and lebensohl combine to be the most popular and thus this hand will get more doubles than 2Ns. I have made a note to discuss this in my new partnership.

[Finch]

As mikeh says, it's partnership agreement.

 

My partnership agreement is that double is responsive showing two places to play (not necessarily hearts) and 2NT is lebensohl, as we may still have game on and my hand needs to distinguish a competitive hand from serious values.

 

A number of people would play that double is penalties, in which case they need 2NT to say "pick a minor".

 

This auction comes up sometimes. The last time I saw it, this hand had a penalty double of 2S, passed smoothly and the initial doubler re-opened and the board was flat in 800. The time before that, this hand had a penalty double, passed smoothly and the hand was passed out, but that was the best result available (+300 in 3 vul undertricks, but after a penalty double responder could have pulled to a one-off spot).

[han]

I would bid 3C because I'm not confident what 2NT would be.

 

I've never heard of treating this double as OBAR. It seems dangerous to double here with a very light hand.

[inquiry]

I would bid 3C because I'm not confident what 2NT would be.

 

I've never heard of treating this double as OBAR. It seems dangerous to double here with a very light hand.

well... it can't be obar, my bad... i think i spelled some of it out. Still, it is takeout of spades.... and I don't want to encourage heart bids and I do want to compete.

[whereagles]

You can play the classical "dbl = pen & 2NT = minors", but I prefer Robson/Segal's rules, whereby dbl here is for take-out (2NT being lebenshol).

[pclayton]

I would bid 3C because I'm not confident what 2NT would be.

 

I've never heard of treating this double as OBAR. It seems dangerous to double here with a very light hand.

Same here. For me, double is penalty, and 2N is natural (yes they can both peacefully co-exist).

 

So I take a stab at 3♣.

[Vilgan]

Same here. For me, double is penalty, and 2N is natural (yes they can both peacefully co-exist).

 

So I take a stab at 3♣.

On a pure frequency basis, how often does one really need to bid 2 NT naturally in this spot as opposed to a bid showing both minors? I haven't had the situation come up once in the last year, whereas similar auctions where I appreciated being able to bid 2 NT for the minors and X for penalty have come up several times.

 

Eric