jvage Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 You are third at favourable (IMP) and have:J6J92Q2AKT983 Partner and opps are strong players (Norwegian Premier League). LHO opens a weak 2♥, partner enters with 2♠ and RHO bids 3♥ (not invitational). What do you bid? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 3♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Playing R/S stuff, 4♣ would be fitted, but I assume you'd have mentioned this. Pard probably has a stiff heart. With some 5=1=3(4)=4(3), pard might double, so I place pard with 5 pretty good spades or 6. I don't like the idea poor pard is going to get tapped, but hopefully he can knock out my LHO's outside honor 1st and keep control. So I try 3♠ too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Do they really recommend 4C as fit-bid here? I find this very surprising, the opponents are not likely to bid 5H. I'm all for allowing a unpassed hand to bid her suit. Ok, 3S for me too, not so easy though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 4♣. Can always correct 4♦/4♥ to 4♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Ben, are you replacing Claus as the designated huge-poster? Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 I'm pretty sure 4♣ isn't fit-showing in R/S. But I have been wrong before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 4♣ seems ok. Doesn't matter whether pard will take this as fitted or not <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmunte1 Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Tough one, John. My choice is 4♣ natural and forcing. All the other calls seems worse:-3♠ -playing a 5-2 fit and getting shortened? (5143, 5152, 5233 are likely shapes)-doubling seems even worse, 4/5♦ will be often partner's call So though it's pushy and we may end overboard, at least we will play in the right denomination Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Dbl. Just in case p is able to pass, bid 3NT or 4♣. My next bid is probably 4♠ but that doesn't terrify me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 I'm pretty sure 4♣ isn't fit-showing in R/S. But I have been wrong before. I can't find any specific reference in R/S to this auction. There are some similar sequences (like where LHO opens 1♠, pard overcalls, and RHO makes a preemptive raise). My gut says its fitted, but perhaps thats only playable by a passed hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvage Posted February 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 The reason I found this interesting was that I had a discussion with Tor Helness in the bar after the play where he brought up this hand. He was very critical (he is known to voice his opinions clearly!) to his teammates 3♠ on this hand. Since I (and as it later proved almost all our premier league players) also bid 3♠ I was very interested in his opinions. At the time I felt I had a choice, and that my bad result was partly bad luck. My Romanian friend Edmunte (Hi Eddie :) ) got a good analysis here, and Appollo and Whereagles also found what Tor believed was the only good call, a natural 4♣. The point is that partner is known to be short in hearts (he will often be void and have a singleton at most, remember opponents are at unfavourable at IMPs), you definitely prefer to ruff hearts from a short club-holding (the short hearts also indicates some club-length) than from 5 spades. If RHO holds 4 spades (as is quite likely) partner will be shortened. If you bid 4♣ you still have a good chance to get to 4♠ when it is correct, that is when partner got at least 6. Even if partner got as little support as AKxxxx,- , KJxxx, xx 5♣ is still OK (but you would prefer 4♠). This also shows why double is not a good call, partner will almost always bid either 3♠ (could still be only 5 and you would not know if you should raise) or 4♦ (actually indicating that clubs is the right strain, but you would not know for sure). Partners hand was:AK974-K986QJ62 He raised 3♠ to 4, and with spades 4-2 (as expected) this was hopeless, while 6♣ was laydown. PS: This hand was from last years PL, not from the last weekend. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 The reason I found this interesting was that I had a discussion with Tor Helness in the bar after the play where he brought up this hand. He was very critical (he is known to voice his opinions clearly!) to his teammates 3♠ on this hand. Since I (and as it later proved almost all our premier league players) also bid 3♠ I was very interested in his opinions. At the time I felt I had a choice, and that my bad result was partly bad luck. My Romanian friend Edmunte (Hi Eddie :) ) got a good analysis here, and Appollo and Whereagles also found what Tor believed was the only good call, a natural 4♣. The point is that partner is known to be short in hearts (he will often be void and have a singleton at most, remember opponents are at unfavourable at IMPs), you definitely prefer to ruff hearts from a short club-holding (the short hearts also indicates some club-length) than from 5 spades. If RHO holds 4 spades (as is quite likely) partner will be shortened. If you bid 4♣ you still have a good chance to get to 4♠ when it is correct, that is when partner got at least 6. Even if partner got as little support as AKxxxx,- , KJxxx, xx 5♣ is still OK (but you would prefer 4♠). This also shows why double is not a good call, partner will almost always bid either 3♠ (could still be only 5 and you would not know if you should raise) or 4♦ (actually indicating that clubs is the right strain, but you would not know for sure). Partners hand was:AK974-K986QJ62 He raised 3♠ to 4, and with spades 4-2 (as expected) this was hopeless, while 6♣ was laydown. PS: This hand was from last years PL, not from the last weekend. John Did Tor consider a double with your pard's hand? I don't think 2♠ is clear at all with this 5=0=4=4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Maybe this is a case of not making a takeout x with a void? But 2s seems ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvage Posted February 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Didn't discuss the 2♠ bid with Tor, but I think this may be one of those regional differences. Around here players tend to bid good 5-card majors when possible, also on hands where I have seen players from other nations double. 2♠ was definitely the majority choice in our Premier League judging from the results printout. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 I was toying with a double of 3♥. But I had decided against it before seeing the results. I was never considering 3♠: I have not made that kind of raise in as many years as I can remember, but one of my partners is prone to doing it and the only results I remember are bad. So I think 4♣ is the lesser of several evil choices. At least, if partner bids 4♠ over 4♣, you are going to be reasonably optimistic that he has 6+. If he bids 4♦, now your 4♠ still gives him a chance. Double will usually work almost as well as, or as well as 4♣, but he might bid 5♦..... it's not the 4♦ call that scares me, since I will retreat to 4♠ and hope to get lucky... but the idea of playing this in 5♠ terrifies me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 I agree with Tor on this one (not surprising - I think he is one of the best there is). I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4C. What is R/S? Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 I agree with Tor on this one (not surprising - I think he is one of the best there is). I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4C. What is R/S? Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Robson / Segal. Not a bad player either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 I agree with Tor on this one (not surprising - I think he is one of the best there is). I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4C. What is R/S? Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Robson / Segal. Not a bad player either. Agree - far to good to suggest playing 4C as fit-showing here I think. You sure he advocates this treatment? Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 I agree with Tor on this one (not surprising - I think he is one of the best there is). I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4C. What is R/S? Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Robson / Segal. Not a bad player either. Agree - far to good to suggest playing 4C as fit-showing here I think. You sure he advocates this treatment? Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com In certain stressed auctions, 4 of a minor is fitted, but its not clear he advocates it here. I tend to think he doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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