Pre-Balance at IMPs?

[awm]

You're unfavorable at IMP scoring. After you pass in first seat, LHO opens 1♥ and RHO raises to 2♥. Do you bid?

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sjhq64dk93ckq7643]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

[kenrexford]

Partner passed 1♥, so we probably have a club fit.

 

I want to misplace the heart Queen for the opponents.

 

I'd like a club lead as much as anything.

 

So, I'll bite at 3♣.

[han]

I pass, partner couldn't act and we are red against white. If they stop in 2H and partner won't balance then I won't feel bad about not sticking out my neck.

[mike777]

I would have opened 1club, this is why we do not play Roth Stone, yes?

[pbleighton]

I would have opened either 1C or 3C, depending on agreements.

 

I pass now.

 

Peter

[MikeRJ]

I will bid 3C. Not without risk, but given that they have a heart fit and partner did not overcall 1S there is a very good chance of a fit with partner. I am a passed hand so partner will not take me too seriously, and will not expect 7 clubs as I did not pre-empt. The points could easily be evenly split, and we could push the opponents to an uncomfortable level. We could also go for 500.....

 

Mike

[glen]

I pass. If opener correctly passes 2♥, and partner cannot balance, then the opponents have an 8+ card ♠ fit to go along with their ♥ fit, and minors+vulnerable vs majors+not vulnerable is not good for us. Note that if partner balances with 2♠, I correct to 3♣. However if partner is not used to balancing vulnerable at IMPs, then somebody has to do it for our side.

[Winstonm]

A good example hand for when not to bid.

[brianshark]

Pass.

[gwnn]

I wouldnt even bid in real balancing position.

[brianshark]

If your partnership have an understanding about Balancing In Direct Seat, then there's a case for 3♣, but the colours scare me. I would, however, balance properly with this hand if 2♥ was passed round to me.

[Apollo81]

I would bid. It's extremely unlikely that (1) partner can balance (2) the opps have fewer than 8 hearts.

 

If they get to game, maybe they will misguess the hQ.

[whereagles]

I would have opened, but, as it is, I'll bid 3♣. It is important to take away opps 2♠ trial bid.

[pclayton]

I'm a bidder. I think pass is a lazy call.

[Edmunte1]

I wouldn't have opened. And now, what is changed? I still have that not so good club suit, ♥Q looks completely unuseful for offense, 1♥ opener still can be strong, and partner (who probably has 5+♠ and 2♥) didn't found a bid.

So i won't put my neck in the strap. It's a standard position for OBAR bids, but it not seems the right moment for entering the bidding.

[whereagles]

I wouldn't have opened. And now, what is changed?

Everything has changed. Opps found a fit and pard didn't overcall spades. Odds for a club fit should be around 98%+.

 

The only reason NOT to bid is the danger of helping opps finding a double-fit and propelling them to a thin, and making, game.

[awm]

This hand came up in a sectional swiss teams. Here's the full set of hands:

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sqt842hjtdt752ca8&w=sa6hak732da64cj95&e=sk9753h985dqj8ct2&s=sjhq64dk93ckq7643]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I was in fact west on this hand. After south passed initially, I opened 1♥ and partner raised to 2♥. At this point south, a very good player (and local pro) overcalled 3♣ which I doubled for penalty. The lead was a top heart, east discouraging, and a switch to ace and a spade to the ten king and ruff. At this point declarer can hold it to down one by pulling trumps (ending in hand) and playing hearts followed by diamonds out of hand, endplaying east into giving up the diamond finesse (or a spade trick). However this is somewhat double-dummy and the actual declarer tried cashing a spade to pitch a diamond loser, for an eventual result of down two, doubled (500). Note that east-west don't have a game anywhere. Our teammates opened a precision 2♣ on the south cards and obtained a small plus score on the board.

 

Of course one hand proves nothing, but I discussed this hand later with one of my regular partners who stated that he would definitely bid on the south cards. This was interesting because this partner seems to view me as lunatic aggressive in competitive auctions (and in fact I have bid on many hands he would pass) but yet I would've passed on the south cards without much consideration to bidding. Certainly my pass would've been right "this time."

 

This hand does perhaps say something favorable about the merits of opening 1♥ on the west cards (rather than 1NT) since the "strong notrump" is among the best possible hands to double an aggressive "OBAR" bid for penalty (enough extras to be likely to beat it a couple tricks, not enough to be likely to have game).

[glen]

Thanks for posting the full hand. An interesting next question is if South and West both pass 2♥, should North come in with 2♠, or perhaps a double, intending to correct 3♣ to 3♦ (now wouldn't that be fun!)?

[Guest Jlall]

I would always bid with the south hand, the numerous win 6s will more than compensate for the occasional time that you get Xed and they cant make a game.

[Winstonm]

I would always bid with the south hand, the numerous win 6s will more than compensate for the occasional time that you get Xed and they cant make a game.

You seem to be implying that bidding on this hand will result in enough 6 imp pickups to justify the risk. To gain a non-game swing, either you win the contract and make or they bid on and go set. I cannot see how either the offensive potential or defensive potential of that supposition with this hand can be supported.

 

There will be X number of hands where we bid and go set.

There will be X number of hands where they bid 3 and make

There will be X number of hands where they will bid game and make.

There will be X number of hands where they double our bid and we lose a larger amount.

 

Holding a lower ranking suit, I don't see how bidding will provide the frequency you suggest. Granted, I do not know the game as well as you and have not played at world level, so just take this as a curious response rather than a challenge - if you want to get pissed at someone take it out on MikeH. :D

[Guest Jlall]

There will be X number of hands where we bid and go set.

There will be X number of hands where they bid 3 and make

There will be X number of hands where they will bid game and make.

There will be X number of hands where they double our bid and we lose a larger amount.

If you suppose that our bidding will have no impact on the play then you can just ignore the cases where they bid and make 3, or they bid game. These cases mean our bid vs pass decision was irrelevant. Our bid is also virtually irrelevant if we go down 1 or 2 in 3C when they were making 2H, it is only relevant if 2H is going down as well.

 

For simplicity the main relevance lies in number of times we go make when 2H was making, and number of times we push them to 3H going down when 2H was making vs the times we go for a number or go set in 3C when 2H was going set. (Yes I am ignoring the times when we gain an extra undertrick and the times when we go -200 vs 110 or 140).

 

It is my opinion that the former happens far more often than the latter. Going set in 3C when they go set in 2H is extremely unlikely, going for a number is more likely but doesn't happen all that often. Real life opps tend to bid 3H too much, what can I say?

 

As far as our bidding having some effect on the play we are far more likely to get the right lead now, and we will probably protect our HQ. Both of these are nice plus sides of bidding.

 

Hopefully you do not take my disagreement as picking on you, I thought that was the whole point of a forum. I could easily be wrong, all of these types of decisions come down to our own limited sample base and our own biases in the way we think.