This may seem simple, but...

[kenrexford]

Playing a fairly natural system, comment on this auction (I have a reason, but I'm keeping it secret for a moment):

 

1♦-1♠-2♣-P

2♥-P-3♥

 

Does anything seem odd about this auction? Does this auction have any special meanings for anyone? Are all bids natural? Is this invitational or GF? What patterns are expected? What length expectations for the various suits?

[inquiry]

Playing a fairly natural system, comment on this auction (I have a reason, but I'm keeping it secret for a moment):

1♦-1♠-2♣-P

2♥-P-3♥

 

Does anything seem odd about this auction?

 

NO

 

Does this auction have any special meanings for anyone?

 

Not for me.

 

Are all bids natural?

 

Yes

 

Is this invitational or GF?

 

Game force. Not because of 2♥. This is no longer a reverse. Opener was forced to rebid. A descriptive 2♥ is fine. GF, because with 4♥ and a club suit, and less than game force he would have used negative double.

 

What patterns are expected?

 

Opener 3+♦ -- probably 4-4 in the reds, less likely 5/6 ♦, 4♥. Responder 5+♣, 4♥

 

What length expectations for the various suits?

 

See above. As an aside, I have seen auctions like this where responder has 5/6 ♣ and three card heart support and an invitational hand. This is a mistake. If you are willing to play in hearts, with an invitational hand (even with 3) make the negative double. If opener doesn't show extra values with hearts, you can either pass 2♥ or make a clear invitational 3♥ raise. No need to distort things with 2♣ then an invitational raise (and remember with invite hand with 4♥ and 5♣ you WOULD start with a dble.

[pclayton]

Nothing unusual about this at all. I play it as a GF too. I don't think there's a strong inference about opener's red suit length, although this is a matter of agreement.

 

With one of my pards we go up the line after 1♦ - 2♣, with another, balanced hands are rebid 2N with responder showing a 4 card major.

[xx1943]

Opener seams to have a reverse 16+HCp with 5♦ and 4♥.

 

What about responder?

1) 2♣ is forcing (as I play)

2) Can he have a ♥ 4-carder and didn't double 1♠ negative? Yes with a game going hand and 5+♣s and 4♥s

3) 3♥ is a game force for sure, since after 2♣ the only not gameforcing bid is 3♣

 

 

Not because of 2♥. This is no longer a reverse.

Why not? If you open 1♦ you must prepared to a 2♣ response.

With a balanced minimum you must bid 2 NT now ( that is the reason, why I prefer 12-14 NT openers) even without a good spade stopper.

With a weak hand and a diamond suit just bid 2 ♦.

 

Al

[gwnn]

1♦-2♣; 2♥ is not normally a reverse I think... of course this is just another style question. nevertheless i think as a 2/1 is at least forcing to 2N, it's common practice to make this "reverse-like seeming bid" on even xx Axxx KQJxx Qx. or even less if you like opening on less.

[helene_t]

Agree with Al, I think 2♥ is "standard" a GF just as it had been in the uncontested auction.

 

Not sure what 3♥ is, though. I might make it on a 1345-shape, offering a choice of game. There is a similar issue:

 

1♣-1♦

1♥-2♥*

 

Some say that playing Walsh, this is forcing, but again I think the 3-card support (or maybe six good diamonds and four louzy hearts) is a more common interpretation.

[kenrexford]

The responses so far confirmed my suspicion and lead me to some thoughts.

 

First, there seems to be a general concensus that you make a negative double with a heart-club canape (short hearts) and less than GF values. Thus, 2♣...hearts shows GF values.

 

Second, there seems to be a lack of concensus as to what next after a 2♣ call, pertaining to Opener's bid of hearts. This ranges anywhere from reverse strength, to "reverse pattern" required (4♥/5+♦), to probably balanced.

 

If you look at the question from alternative auctions, things get interesting.

 

If Opener would have bid 2♥ only with reverse values, then Responder will need to pattern out later. If Opener happens to hold spade stoppers, four hearts, balanced, with extras, he may bid 3NT, jamming the heart exploration. However, unless playing weak NT, this will not occur. So, Responder will usually be able to complete pattern, expected after after 2♦ or 3♣ most often from Opener, or 2NT.

 

If Opener would have bid 2♥ with the right pattern, but no requirement for extra strength, the same jam of 3NT might occur playing weak 1NT. One further tweak occurs, however. Whenever Opener rebids 2♦, we can be assured that there is no 4-4 heart fit.

 

If Opener would have bid 2♥ with any balanced hand, then 2♦ also guarantees that there is no 4-4 heart fit, let alone any other call. (However, I'm not sure if this school would bid 2♦ with 5+♦/4♥, such that a heart fit is not excluded. Thus, it seems like "School 3A" could be the "always bid hearts if you have them" school, but "School 3B" the "bid hearts if balanced, bid diamonds again if unbalanced -- 5+♦ -- and wait for partner to bid hearts if he has them" school.

 

I find it strange that there is so much disagreement as to what Opener needs to bid hearts in this auction. It is particularly humorous that the schools might actually range from those who always promise five diamonds when rebidding hearts to those who deny five diamonds if rebidding hearts, both making sense from one perspective or another.

 

So, anyway, to the next question. If 1♦-1♠-X is the approved course with a heart-club canape, what is the minimum for this double? I'll assume 6 HCP's and balanced, with four hearts, for the moment. The purpose of this seems to be to not lose hearts. If the auction then continues with a raise to 2♠, or even 3♠, how do you work out strength when you in fact do have a heart fit, let alone when you do not? If you double with an invitational canape, or a weak canape, how to you find a club fit (and strength) after spade comp.?

 

[Part of this is skepticism, as I do not understand this modern practice to have "Lawrence 2/1" theory applied to 1♦-1M-2♣ (comp). If it makes sense, I'll change my mind. But, I've seen problems in practice and confusion/disagreement in stated theory so far. I figured that my skeptical challenge, Socratic method perhaps, will not only help me decide, but it will also allow the disciples to realize their own disagreements and misunderstandings, hopefully of benefit as well.]

[kenrexford]

Now, I left out another wrinkle on this. In 2006, Gitelman-Moss used a negative double after 1♣-1♠-? when Responder held a diamond-heart canape, a similar position, on a hand that the other table handled through a Splinter (1♣-1♠-3♠), indicating that the negative double can be quite meaty.

 

It seems that, taken to its extreme version (double with hearts, period), you could actually have an auction where 2♥ from Opener merely completes pattern, and 3♥ by Responder is artificial, or even where 2♥ by Opener was artificial. So far, no one has gone that far.

[fred]

Now, I left out another wrinkle on this. In 2006, Gitelman-Moss used a negative double after 1♣-1♠-? when Responder held a diamond-heart canape, a similar position, on a hand that the other table handled through a Splinter (1♣-1♠-3♠), indicating that the negative double can be quite meaty.

 

It seems that, taken to its extreme version (double with hearts, period), you could actually have an auction where 2♥ from Opener merely completes pattern, and 3♥ by Responder is artificial, or even where 2♥ by Opener was artificial. So far, no one has gone that far.

My agreement with Brad Moss is that if responder has 4 hearts, longer clubs, and enough strength to force to game both negative DBL and 2C are acceptable - responder uses his judgment to decide between these calls. My guess is that in practice we will bid 2C about 70% of the time with such hands.

 

I agree with all of Inquiry's answers to all of your questions.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[cherdano]

I don't understand you last question. In standard you don't double with hearts if you have a longer side suit (that you want to show) and GF values. You just bid your suits in natural order, as you are saying above. Also, the minimum for a double isn't a balanced hand with 6hcp, it is a bit more.

 

Your question about opener's rebids is interesting, of course. The problem is that opener's rebid of 2♦ is passable in standard I believe (at least it is in BWS, so if Mikeh gets mad at me for saying this I can pass the blame B) ). So I don't think opener can rebid 2♦ with four diamonds. And weak NT without spade stopper certainly won't rebid 2NT (sorry Al, I don't think stopperless 2N is standard there and I doubt it would be a good method). So as much as I hate it, opener will have to rebid 2♥ with a stopperless 3442.

 

This means that 2♥, while necessarily forcing, can't show extra values. Responder has to rebid 2N, 3♣ or 3♦ with minimum, but 3♥ is game forcing as explained by Ben.

 

Arend

[xx1943]

And weak NT without spade stopper certainly won't rebid 2NT (sorry Al, I don't think stopperless 2N is standard there and I doubt it would be a good method). So as much as I hate it, opener will have to rebid 2♥ with a stopperless 3442.

I don't like to change the meanings of my systemic bids, only because opponents intervene.

And if there is no intervention, what will you rebid with:

432, K432, AK102, K2 ?

1♦ pass 2♣ pass ???

 

Al

[000002]

opener

Jxx------------Qxx

KJxx---------- AQxx

AKxxx--------

Q -------------- Kxxxxx

 

how to explain this ?

 

 

regards 000002

 

 

C U after 15days

[kenrexford]

opener

Jxx------------Qxx

KJxx---------- AQxx

AKxxx--------

Q -------------- Kxxxxx

 

how to explain this ?

 

 

regards 000002

 

 

C U after 15days

This is a great deal for discussion.

 

The way I originally learned bidding, these hands were easily bid. Opener starts 1♦. If 1♠ is overcalled, Responder bids 2♣. If there is no further interference, Opener rebids 2♦ (not enough to reverse/high-reverse), Responder bids 2♥ (completing picture, one-round force), and judgment takes over as to how high to stop in hearts.

 

In this method, he same auction would occur without 2/1 GF, but 2/1GF would require a tenency-canape 1♥ from Responder.

 

If the 1♠ interference was raised to 2♠, either Opener or Responder could double, probably Opener (more easily converting the "wrong" bid), and hearts are in the picture with values known to be invitational+. If a 3♠ raise occurred, we have some difficulties.

 

It seems that now everyone doubles 1♠ with Responder's hand, negative. However, much less shape and strength is required. The existence of the known heart fit does not give much in the way of superior information after a 2♠ raise, nor is this information incredible help after a 3♠ raise.

 

If 1♠ is not raised, then it seems that some will bid 2♦ with Opener's hand, to pattern out, whereas others will bid 2♥ to pattern out. Weird. It also seems that some cannot pattern out with a 2♥ bid because the hand is too weak. Also, while some bid 2♥ and infer nothing about diamonds, others cannot bid 2♥ because it would deny rebiddable diamonds, and yet others rebid 2♥ precisely because it does guarantee five diamonds.

 

This means that some apparently bid 2♥ to show hearts and diamonds, but must bid 2♦ is they have hearts but not diamonds, really strange sounding, or because the hand is not strong enough.

 

This is all very confusing. LOL

[inquiry]

And weak NT without spade stopper certainly won't rebid 2NT (sorry Al, I don't think stopperless 2N is standard there and I doubt it would be a good method). So as much as I hate it, opener will have to rebid 2♥ with a stopperless 3442.

I don't like to change the meanings of my systemic bids, only because opponents intervene.

And if there is no intervention, what will you rebid with:

432, K432, AK102, K2 ?

1♦ pass 2♣ pass ???

 

Al

Al,

 

Remember that once your opponent overcalls (say 1♠), you will have a cue-bid for all strong hands with no clear direction. So with diamonds and hearts, and a great hand (reverse stregnth), you can CUE-BID 2♠. This unloads the 2♥ rebid.

 

I play artificial rebids after 1♦-pass-2♣-pass, so my rebid is hardly germane here. But the answer would depend upon if partner would bypass a 4 card heart suit very frequently. On the competitive auction, partner had no chance to show a four card heart suit.

[mike777]

And weak NT without spade stopper certainly won't rebid 2NT (sorry Al, I don't think stopperless 2N is standard there and I doubt it would be a good method). So as much as I hate it, opener will have to rebid 2♥ with a stopperless 3442.

I don't like to change the meanings of my systemic bids, only because opponents intervene.

And if there is no intervention, what will you rebid with:

432, K432, AK102, K2 ?

1♦ pass 2♣ pass ???

 

Al

Al,

 

Remember that once your opponent overcalls (say 1♠), you will have a cue-bid for all strong hands with no clear direction. So with diamonds and hearts, and a great hand (reverse stregnth), you can CUE-BID 2♠. This unloads the 2♥ rebid.

 

I play artificial rebids after 1♦-pass-2♣-pass, so my rebid is hardly germane here. But the answer would depend upon if partner would bypass a 4 card heart suit very frequently. On the competitive auction, partner had no chance to show a four card heart suit.

really?

 

2nt does not seem terrible, partner can always rebid 3h it seems. We do have a balanced hand even if with 432 of spades.

 

I assume once we open this hand rebidding nt cannot be that poor? Of course I understand if we do not open this hand. :)

[fred]

And weak NT without spade stopper certainly won't rebid 2NT (sorry Al, I don't think stopperless 2N is standard there and I doubt it would be a good method). So as much as I hate it, opener will have to rebid 2♥ with a stopperless 3442.

I don't like to change the meanings of my systemic bids, only because opponents intervene.

And if there is no intervention, what will you rebid with:

432, K432, AK102, K2 ?

1♦ pass 2♣ pass ???

 

Al

If keeping the definitions the same regardless of whether or not there is interference is so important to you, perhaps you should consider rebidding something other than 2NT when you have xxx of an unbid suit, regardless of whether or not that suit has been bid by the opponents.

 

If you can't live with that I can understand it. I can also understand "not liking to" have to rethink things as a result of interference, but I assume you also don't like getting to 3NT off the first 5 tricks in a suit when the opponents have been kind enough to warn you of this danger.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com