limit raise basics

[elwood913]

HI,

I play standard american and have just shifted from forcing raises to limit raises. I have a few questions about how responder should treat the various situations in which he wants to raise opener's major given different point count ranges and trump suport. My general understanding of limit raises is this:

Limit raises show 10-12 and 3 trumps to an honor. In conjunction with limit raises I play J2NT, showing 13+ and any 4 trumps, and splinters, showing 13-16 and any 4 trumps and a sing or void.

My basic question is this: How do you show support for partner's opener when you have sub-standard trump support to make one of these bids? That is, what do you do with: 10-12 and 3 trumps without an honor, or 13+ and only 3 trumps, with or withour a splinter.

Also, I have a couple more questions:

What do you think of the point count ranges and trump support I have suggested for the various bids?

What do you do with a splinter and more than 16 points?

What other conventions would you suggest as good complements to the bidding system I have described?

Thanks a lot!

Bill

[BillHiggin]

My basic question is this: How do you show support for partner's opener when you have sub-standard trump support to make one of these bids?

First, this is a good starting point. There are lots of raise structures and some may suggest their favorites, but keep things fairly simple until you are confident that adding complications is what you are ready for.

With poor trumps (such as 3 small) and invitational values, you probably have a decent suit - bid that suit and then raise partner. If your side suit is lower ranking (it usually will be), then the 2/1 response will show the strength so you will make the cheapest raise possible. If you respond 1S to 1H, you will need to raise to 3H next to show the strength.

With game forcing strength and minimal support, you will usually begin with a bid showing your best suit. Of course you must not make a call at your next turn that is not forcing unless the call is 4 of your partner's major. It can be a useful excercise to write out a diagram showing the various new suit bids over each major opening and the possible opener rebids - mark all the opener rebids that show extra (game forcing) strength and over the others, list the bids by responder that are now forcing. Discuss this list with your partner.

 

What do you think of the point count ranges and trump support I have suggested for the various bids?

A good start. For raises, another hand evaluation technique is even better. Losing Trick Count works very nicely for raises. A web search will find many articles on that. A nice thing about LTC is that it will help you in raise situations whether your partner uses it (or is even aware of it) or not. For the limit raise, make sure to include any 4 card support (not just 3 to an honor).

 

What do you do with a splinter and more than 16 points?

If you bid 2 suits and jump in a third, you are showing shortness in the fourth. This was used well before splinter bids were even thought of.

 

What other conventions would you suggest as good complements to the bidding system I have described?

1) Discuss raises when the opponents compete. Look up Jordan 2N for use over their take out doubles, and consider using a cue bid of their suit as a invitational raise or better over their overcalls.

2) Look at game tries over a single raise. Keep it simple. Help suit tries with counter tries (if responder does not have real help but is otherwise maximum he shows where his help lies) are a good but mostly natural system.

[elwood913]

I posted this thread a few days back and got only one reply (thanks Bill), which gave me some useful tips but left me still a little confused about some of the basics of the limit raise agreement.

Again my basic question is this--Playing SA (2/1 not gf, non-forcing NT) if a double raise of a Major requires 10-12 points and 3 trumps to an honor, what do you do with 10-12 points and 3 small trumps? If J2NT and splinter bids are used to show game forcing values and 4 or more trumps, what do you bid with game forcing values and only 3 trumps?

The first step in each of these cases seems clear--you should bid a new suit to force the auction and then show your support later. But how do you then show that support? Partner deals and opens and you hold:

[hv=d=n&s=skqxxxhxxxdaxxcxx]133|100|1♥-1♠-1♦-?[/hv]Does 2 ♥ here show 10-12 and 3 small trumps? If so, how does opener know it doesn't show something like Kxxxx Kx xx xxxx?

 

[hv=d=n&s=skqxxxhxxxdaxxcxx]133|100|1♥-1♠-1♦-?[/hv]Does 3 ♥ show 13+ and fewer than 4 trumps? If not what does?

 

Also, I suppose a fundamental question would be: Are the requirements I listed for the various responses good ones? 1M-3M= 10-12 and 3 to an honor; 1M-2NT= 13+ and 4 trumps; Splinter= 13-16, 4 trumps, and a singleton or void.

Thanks again,

Bill

[ArcLight]

I think for Limit Raises most pards are going to expect 4 (not 3 to an honor).

Unless you discuss this upfront, many (?most?) pick up pards will not expect only 3.

In addition your opponents will assume you have 4, so you might want to pre-alert.

(otherwise be ready for very very slow games as the opponents play 20 questions about the meaning of your future bids and inferences about what a bid that was not made would mean)

 

Having that 4th trump is valuable, playing a 5-4 fit is much more comfortable than a 5-3 fit, especially if trumps are not strong. One statistic I saw is that 4th trump is worth 0.75 tricks in a 4M contract

 

 

1H - 1S

2D - 3H = delayed Limit Raise

 

In the 2nd case, you can use Fourth Suit Forcing, if you want to consider 3NT. Since you have no spots, 3NT is probably not a good idea.

You can bid 4 hearts, showing a GF hand with 3 card support.

[brianshark]

Some play limit raises have 4 card support, but either way the principle is the same. You have a limit raise with good support, or a limit raise with bad support.

 

So with good support, you jump to 3 in your partner's Major. With bad support, you find a temporising bid (some new suit, you can lie a little about length, but it's better to lie about a minor than the other major), and then jump to 3 of your partner's Major.

 

So the sequence:

 

1♠-3♠ = limit raise with good support.

1♠-2♣-2 of something-3♠ = limit raise with less good support (but still 3 cards).

 

If, after you bid a new suit, you then return to 2 of your partner's Major, you are now only showing 2 card support and a minimum hand.

[inquiry]

I play standard american and have just shifted from forcing raises to limit raises. I have a few questions about how responder should treat the various situations in which he wants to raise opener's major given different point count ranges and trump suport.

First, to answer these questions, we need to know if you play a 1NT response to a major as "forcing". The reason why is if you do, some of the auctions will be dramatically affected by this meaning. If you had said you played 2/1 with limit raise, we would have assumed you played 1NT, since you said you played Standard American with limit raise, I assume you do not play 1NT forcing.

 

My general understanding of limit raises is this:

Limit raises show 10-12 and 3 trumps to an honor. 

 

Playing a forcing 1NT, this hand type is typically described by bidding 1NT and then raising to 3M. This allows 1M-3M to show essentially the same raise, but with four trumps.

 

Not playing 2/1 GF with forcing 1NT, bid 2m and then raise the major

 

 

In conjunction with limit raises I play J2NT, showing 13+ and any 4 trumps, and splinters, showing 13-16 and any 4 trumps and a sing or void.

 

It is more common to limit the value of a splinter in terms of HCP. If I had to guess the "accepted" valuef for a splinter raise after 1M, I would say around 9 to 12 hcp so that counting the distribution, the hand would be worth 13 to 15 "points" in support of partner. With a hand stronger than that, go through JAcoby 2NT or a 2 over 1 response.

 

My basic question is this:  How do you show support for partner's opener when you have sub-standard trump support to make one of these bids?  That is, what do you do with: 10-12 and 3 trumps without an honor, or 13+ and only 3 trumps, with or withour a splinter.

 

Using a forcing 1NT, you can go the same way as with 3 cards to an honor. I have a fairly non-standard approach to 13-15 with three card support and a balanced hand, I jump to 3NT. If I have unbalanced hand, I will bid the five card suit, then raise. With 16+ hcp and three card support, I use Jacoby anyway.

 

What do you think of the point count ranges and trump support I have suggested for the various bids?

 

Your hcp for your splinters is too high.

 

What do you do with a splinter and more than 16 points?

 

No. In fact, I think a splinter with 13 to 15 hcp is too high.

 

What other conventions would you suggest as good complements to the bidding system I have described?

 

The 1M-3NT to show balanced 13-15 with three card support has been useful for me.

 

As for your later questions..

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-?. what does 2♥ show?

 

2♥ shows a preference for ♥ over ♦ and can be weak. I mean, what do you do with a spade suit that is not rebiddable and a real dislike for diamonds. With the first hand you showed, and if I was playing constructive raises, I would have raised to 2♥ immediately rather than bid 1♠

 

Same auction with the good hand, you should play a convention know as "fourth suit forcing". So if you thought your hand was worth of a game invite, over 2♦ you would jump to 3♥. If you thougth your hand was worth of game force, you could decide between a direct 4♥ bid (PFA, weaker than the other auctions forcing to 4♥ -- PFA stands for principle of fast arrival), or you could bid 3♣ which would be artificial and forcing, and when you later show ♥ support you show a hand that was a) gf in value, b.) to stong for 3♥ over 2♦, c.) too strong for 4♥ over 2♦.